DI and the soundman

[carlosfandango]

[quote name='misrule' post='215575' date='Jun 9 2008, 05:59 PM']Hi, folks --

On Saturday, we played a gig for which our singer/guitarist set up and ran the PA system. He's a sound engineer, and very good from what I could see.

All our amps were either miked up or DI-ed so he could record the set. My amp, an SVT 3 Pro, has a DI output on the back but he wanted me to use another DI box to give him a clean signal, without my pre-amp in the way.

He said he'd get the pure sound of the bass. But I insisted on him using the signal from my pre-amp -- otherwise, why would I bother using it?

My questions are: Why does he want a clean signal when I play with a lot of grit? What can he achieve with it?

And was I right to stand my ground? Would I have been better off leaving things to him?

Cheers

Mark[/quote]

Hi, it's likely that he simply wanted to have a really good clean signal from the bass. By running it before the amp with a good DI box he can be sure to get a good signal even if your amp should break down (as they sometimes do). Also, some bass players insists of running the DI post EQ on the amp and that makes the engineers job much more difficult especially if the bassists keep fiddling on the EQ all night...I do it all the time to make sure I can hear myself properly when the guitarists starts to crank up thier amps as the night goes by....

[misrule]

Thanks, Carlos -- good point about the amp breaking down. I didn't think of that.

Cheers

Mark

[The Funk]

[quote name='misrule' post='215575' date='Jun 9 2008, 05:59 PM']And was I right to stand my ground?[/quote]

Yes.

[s_u_y_*]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='215650' date='Jun 9 2008, 07:43 PM']Inexperienced musicians tend to concentrate on there own sound not the bands.
Keep in mind you can not accurately judge the true sound of a amp in a band context 3 feet in front of the speaker[/quote]

+1. It is impossible for you to judge what sounds good for the audience from the stage.

If you're just doing gigs on the toilet circuit, you have little time to soundcheck. I believe anything to make the soundguy's job more easier can result in a better sound in general. So I always send him a DI signal before the pre-amp and use the minimum volume of backline I need. It may not be totally [i]my[/i] sound, but I'd rather it sound half decent than it sound too loud or boomy or etc, from the audience's perspective. There is a big element of trust involved I guess.

Edited June 10, 2008 by s_u_y_*

[johnnylager]

[quote name='carlosfandango' post='215755' date='Jun 9 2008, 09:47 PM']Hi, it's likely that he simply wanted to have a really good clean signal from the bass. By running it before the amp with a good DI box he can be sure to get a good signal even if your amp should break down (as they sometimes do). Also, some bass players insists of running the DI post EQ on the amp and that makes the engineers job much more difficult especially if the bassists keep fiddling on the EQ all night...I do it all the time to make sure I can hear myself properly when the guitarists starts to crank up thier amps as the night goes by.... [/quote]
Just spoken to me soundman mucker and pretty much said this too. He tends to use my SansAmp uneffected as a straight DI for the other bands on the bill when we play his venue though 'cos it gives a good strong signal.

[LukeFRC]

soundmen are great (i do a bit me self!)

I also have basses that I know sound awsome whether through amp or DI.
My P bass espacially sounds so good through DI i dont care, it would tak a very special soundman to much the tone of that up!

[BOD2]

The signal taken from the DI of your amp in most cases will not sound the same as what you hear in front of your speakers.

The speakers themselves add "colour" to the sound and you'll set your EQ to allow for this. When you take the DI signal before it reaches the speakers then the resultant EQ might not be appropriate.

Good DI boxes often have "speaker simulators" which try to redress this so that the DI signal sounds close to that of a mic in front of a speaker cab. Preamps (like the Line6 Bass POD) are designed to output a fully speaker-simulated signal at the DI outputs - so that what goes to the FOH desk is very much like the sound of a mic in front of a cab.

Soundmen try to reduce the number of mics on stage as far as possible as this allows more headroom before feedback and less spillover into adjacent mics (which muddies up the sound), which is why they like to use DI whenever possible.

+1 for the FOH band sound being more important than each individual's sound - and since YOU can't hear the FOH sound you cannot adjust your EQ to get the best.

The soundman will feel more comfortable working with what he is familar with (i.e. a straight DI signal from the bass) and given the limited time usually available for soundchecking this is not unreasonable.

The problem you have is that with a unknown soundman you have no idea if he good at his job or not. It sometimes helps to have a friend whose ears you can trust to give you an idea of how the FOH sounds so that you'll know if you have a good soundman or not, then try to remember that next time you use him.

[SteveK]

Don't forget, "Your sound" comes from a combination of amp [b]and[/b] speakers. A mic [b]or[/b] mic and separate DI would be the way to go.

Steve

[Adrenochrome]

The sound of the band to the audience should be all you're bothered about as long as you have enough volume to hear yourself. I switch off the EQ on my amp and just use it as a stage monitor and use the DI from my amp which is effectively pre-EQ. I think this makes the soundman's job easier. If it's a very muddy sounding venue I might press the bright button that adds a dash of top-end but this is easy for the soundman to deal with as he tends to cut some of my treble anyway.

[misrule]

[quote name='BOD2' post='216022' date='Jun 10 2008, 11:28 AM']The signal taken from the DI of your amp in most cases will not sound the same as what you hear in front of your speakers.

The speakers themselves add "colour" to the sound and you'll set your EQ to allow for this. When you take the DI signal before it reaches the speakers then the resultant EQ might not be appropriate.

Good DI boxes often have "speaker simulators" which try to redress this so that the DI signal sounds close to that of a mic in front of a speaker cab. Preamps (like the Line6 Bass POD) are designed to output a fully speaker-simulated signal at the DI outputs - so that what goes to the FOH desk is very much like the sound of a mic in front of a cab.

Soundmen try to reduce the number of mics on stage as far as possible as this allows more headroom before feedback and less spillover into adjacent mics (which muddies up the sound), which is why they like to use DI whenever possible.

+1 for the FOH band sound being more important than each individual's sound - and since YOU can't hear the FOH sound you cannot adjust your EQ to get the best.

The soundman will feel more comfortable working with what he is familar with (i.e. a straight DI signal from the bass) and given the limited time usually available for soundchecking this is not unreasonable.

The problem you have is that with a unknown soundman you have no idea if he good at his job or not. It sometimes helps to have a friend whose ears you can trust to give you an idea of how the FOH sounds so that you'll know if you have a good soundman or not, then try to remember that next time you use him.[/quote]
Thanks, guys -- I'm learning a lot here!

Cheers

Mark

[BigRedX]

No entirely convince of the logic behind this...

No soundman would ever consider doing anything other than mic up a guitar amp (unless the guitarist had a VERY compelling reason to do otherwise) no matter how weird the guitar sounded. So why should the bass be treated differently.

There are some instances where DI'ing between the bass and amp won't make much difference to the sound - a Fender P or J going into a cleanish sounding amp with no effects, but every instance should be treated separately.

In my previous band my rig was based around a multi-fx processor which split the signal into high and low components with different effects added to each and then fed into a 2 channel power amp for on-stage. I did once get an soundman who wanted to take a pre-rig DI. I explained that I would be quite happy for him to do this provided he'd be able to add back the chorus, MIDI synchronised delay and triggered filter effects that I used all in the appropriate places at his desk... otherwise he could take the 2 DI channels that I'd provide for him from the high quality passive DI boxes I had wired into the rack before the power-amp.

What I'm saying is that each bass set-up should be treated individually and the most appropriate solution should be applied rather than taking a one-size-fits-all approach.

[BOD2]

There are probably "historical reasons" for the DI approach. Previously the bass would have been a fairly "straight" sound without the addition of much in the way of FX, and this was often true in the studio (bass straight into the desk is not unheard of) as well as live.

Given that a straight DI from the bass to the desk is likely to create the least sound PROBLEMS it is often convenient to adopt this approach so as to allow more time to sort out the more fraught drum mic-ing, vocals and monitoring. And in many cases the resulting sound might well be good enough.

I'm not saying this is right, but you can understand the reasoning behind it when time is limited if you can get one insrument sorted in under 2 minutes !

But if you use a more complex rig then you need to be prepared to make your case to the soundman at the outset and ensure you can help provide what he needs to reproduce that soundman.

Don't pi$$ off the soundman - he controls what the audience hear. Work together as a team.

The reason guitars aren't generally DI'd is because they absolutely need the amp to make them sound good. A DI'd guitar has very limited application. You need the distortion (even only mild distortion) of the amp to turn that weedy guitar signal into something usable and the speaker cab to mellow it out to something interesting. Unless of course you use a Line6 POD or something equivalent.

[cheddatom]

When I gig, I get the soundman to take a DI. If he doesn't have his own box, I get him to take it pre-EQ from the amp. I also get him to mic my guitar amp (using this for the top end, but could be your tweeter/horn). Then I ask him to roll the top off the DI and the bottom off the mic, and this tends to work. Sometimes they'll think i'm telling them how to do their job, sometimes they'll appreciate that i'm helping them out. I generally just smile at them and be nice 'cos soundmen can be easily agitated.

[BOD2]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='216188' date='Jun 10 2008, 02:16 PM']When I gig, I get the soundman to take a DI. If he doesn't have his own box, I get him to take it pre-EQ from the amp. I also get him to mic my guitar amp (using this for the top end, but could be your tweeter/horn). Then I ask him to roll the top off the DI and the bottom off the mic, and this tends to work. Sometimes they'll think i'm telling them how to do their job, sometimes they'll appreciate that i'm helping them out. I generally just smile at them and be nice 'cos soundmen can be easily agitated.[/quote]

And that's a perfect approach because you KNOW exactly what you want and are able to help set it up. I don't think any reasonable soundman would object to that given that you're telling him precisely what you want.

What a soundman doesn't want is someone with a vague idea about what they want and who wants him to try out loads of different options while you listen and say "...hmmmm that's not quite right can we try xyz now..." (and that applies to anyone, not just the bass).

If you're new to this I would advise you initially go along with what the soundman suggests while asking him about how it works and learning what he's doing. Then as you do it more you can then make useful suggestions and occasionally try things out in an informed way. As experience comes you'll get to know what works and what doesn't.

[johnnylager]

[quote name='BOD2' post='216198' date='Jun 10 2008, 02:33 PM']If you're new to this I would advise you initially go along with what the soundman suggests while asking him about how it works and learning what he's doing. Then as you do it more you can then make useful suggestions and occasionally try things out in an informed way. As experience comes you'll get to know what works and what doesn't.[/quote]
You the man.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='BOD2' post='216198' date='Jun 10 2008, 02:33 PM']And that's a perfect approach because you KNOW exactly what you want and are able to help set it up. I don't think any reasonable soundman would object to that given that you're telling him precisely what you want.[/quote]

Well, you'd think so wouldn't you. I reckon 50% of the time I just get abuse!

Yeh, good advice though, if you don't know what you're after, don't bother asking the soundman to f*ck about, just go with him - he knows how to make his room/rig sound good (hopefully).

[suicidal_lemming]

well from my own experiance of running live music for a local pub the sound guy that we use, tends to Mic up the bassists own amp as he can get a better sound from it, he will only use his own Di box if there is no Di imput on the back of the bassists amp - and its also easier to manuliplate the sound thats coming into the Mix..

[DaveSetchfield]

For an easy life, always go with the soundman! If you know that the DI sound straight from the bass is good, then at least you're giving him something good to work with. Your sound will still be your own onstage from your rig and you won't have fallen out with him, so chances are you'll have a decent out front sound.

[chris_b]

I had this situation....soundman (with big ego); "I always use a DI box. I get a better sound"! Well... It's [b]my[/b] sound not his and everyone else gets a great sound out of the back of the amp so in my opinion it's not his choice. I prevailed!
Mostly I use 2 channels, a DI from the amp and a mike in front of the cab.

[xilddx]

Low frequencies of the bass are affected by the venue quite a lot more than the high and mids of the guitars and are harder to control FoH. I always be friendly to the sound person even though they almost always arrive two hours later than the soundcheck was supposed to finish ;-)

I've never had any problems from sound engineers with them using my VXL, had one once that was dubious about using it but tried it and said it sounded great. Then again, I only really use two sounds live anyway so it's never going to be too much of an issue.

I'm taking delivery of the new POD X3 Live floor unit today and I plan to program a variety of patches for different songs and go straight to the desk, so that might freak a few sound folks maybe. Then again, they will probably have lo and hi pass filters anyway. I'll be taking the VXL as backup or for smaller gigs.

As a rule I usually go with the sound engineer's decisions. After all, we are in the entertainment industry here, and the sound engineer usually knows what's best for the audience, and one has to let go of the ego sometimes.

[Huge Hands]

[quote name='chris_b' post='228674' date='Jun 28 2008, 06:44 PM']I had this situation....soundman (with big ego); "I always use a DI box. I get a better sound"! Well... It's [b]my[/b] sound not his and everyone else gets a great sound out of the back of the amp so in my opinion it's not his choice. I prevailed!
Mostly I use 2 channels, a DI from the amp and a mike in front of the cab.[/quote]

Chris - I assume you're taking about studio recording here?

Believe me, in a big venue with a large PA, tightly packed stage with thundering drummers, vocalists insisting on loud monitors and suchlike, the last thing a soundman wants to do is mic a bass cab if he can help it.

As the previous poster said, you just get way to much spill, it adds to feedback rumbles and problems (and the soundman's headache). Being in a band is about working together with your "team" and making sure you all mix in well together, including not insisting on something that may b****r up your gig. I wish my band understood that, especially in regards to level of backline - we'd all have our hearing intact!

By all means insist on your own sound, but work with the soundman to get it. Some will be @rseholes and refuse to be accomodating whatsoever, that's just one of those things we have to deal with. Some will be happy to help as long as it's not going to cause major problems that neither of you have much chance of controlling.

[alexclaber]

I now believe the acid test for a good soundman is if they look pleased when they see an Avalon U5 in my rack!

Alex

[thisnameistaken]

More often than not the issue I have with house sound guys is that they're rockers. Not that I have anything against rockers, generally, but they tend to have a pretty rigid idea of what the bass is supposed to sound like, and with the bands I do it's not really what my bass ought to sound like.

I suppose it works for 90% of the bands they get in, but it means I always have to be "the awkward one". Sometimes you get a guy who's happy to change things up to suit the band's sound, but more often it's arms folded and staring at you like you're speaking Japanese.

[RayFW]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='232194' date='Jul 3 2008, 06:26 PM']More often than not the issue I have with house sound guys is that they're rockers. Not that I have anything against rockers, generally, but they tend to have a pretty rigid idea of what the bass is supposed to sound like, and with the bands I do it's not really what my bass ought to sound like.

I suppose it works for 90% of the bands they get in, but it means I always have to be "the awkward one". Sometimes you get a guy who's happy to change things up to suit the band's sound, but more often it's arms folded and staring at you like you're speaking Japanese.[/quote]

+1

[ironside1966]

A good rule of thumb is to listen to other bands in that venue, if they sound good then trust the soundman.

When working FOH for bands and there is plenty of time available I do not mind changing things around to suite the band, I may use a Di for back up.
When working with a few bands or time is short, I will stick to what I know and trust, the last thing you need is a mumping bass player or any musician for that matterwho's only concern is their sound or themselves,. Time given up you is time taken form another musician or band.

A lot of engineers are also very capable and experienced musicians and do understand it form both sides of the desk
A little respect,understanding, give and take go's a long way.

If the band behave like a pros and with respect that's generally how you will get treated back.
but then again there are some @rseholes out there.