Encourage learners, or 'Tell it like it is'..?

[Dave Vader]

Back when I was a kid learning to play piano and guitar, there were plenty of times I felt it was too hard and thought about giving up. Luckily for me the internet didn't exist back then, so i didn't post about it online and get somebody I had never met telling me I should. I spoke to my dog about it, and he said woof, which was meaningless, and like most kids, i went back had another go and it got easier.

I am glad that there weren't people on the internet telling kids to give up 4 weeks into trying to play when i was a kid, or I would have had a totally different life.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1366110239' post='2048341']
Good afternoon, all...

We all have our own way to reply when we see help being asked by beginners. I would assume that all beginners would have their own reactions to the help proffered.
What, in your opinion or experience, is a good method..? Should one cajole and flatter (Come on lad, I'm sure you can make it...), or instead take a more robust attitude (Blisters..? You call them blisters..? Nah..!..)..?
No fighting, please, but contradictory insight welcome...
[/quote]

Be constructive, always. Point out positives, and things to work on (don't frame them as negatives, just something to improve). Don't give more credit than is due, as it tends to just over-inflate an ego, and then they think they won't need to improve. If it's really terrible, point out how to improve, and encourage them to practice more, and try it again in a few weeks. We all went through the same things when starting, sore fingers, struggling with even easy basslines etc, so being derogatory is a bit pointless. How would you have liked that kind of talk when you started?

[xilddx]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1366124719' post='2048645']
I don`t believe it was whining.If it did come over as whining then i am sorry, i must get better at expressing myself .I was Merely asking for a little help which most people seemed happy to do,which have been very helpful to me.I also never said i was going to give up, so not really sure where that came from.But if you really want to say how it is, don`t attribute things to people that were never said.I took on board your quote saying it doesn`t get any easier.But if want to come over with attitude, that is your choice.
[/quote]

Don't worry about it mate. I think he decided you were whining when all you said was it's a hell of a lot of information to take in and sometimes it feels like it's impossible to take in.

I was taught guitar in my teens in a similar way, teacher was a greast guy and a great musician and player. However, he was teaching me notation, modes, Mahavishnu Orchestra guitar chords when I'd been playing for about six months. I learned a lot and forgot a lot. I still don't really read notation, my theory is small and patchy, but I have good ears and I'm a decent guitar and bass player with some great artists. Don't be discouraged, you really do need some quick wins to go with all the hard work, and boy, you will really get plenty of times where you feel you're going backwards. But just persevere and enjoy it. When some confusing knowledge all snaps into place and you get one of many Eureka! moments, it's all worth it.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1366122833' post='2048610']
And this is entirely why you should not teach.
[/quote]

Why?

[MiltyG565]

Hang on, have I missed something here?

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1366121069' post='2048573']
This is obvious in response to my post in the other thread which was misunderstood. I think it's important to encourage when someone shows effort. I do not believe in coddling someone who's been playing for 4 weeks is whining how hard it is.

I realize also that whenever anyone has a difference of opinion or adds any perspective that isn't in concensus with the majority, it's considered trolling. My point remains -- when someone is enthusiastic, they'll love the process and nothing can stop them. That deserves encouragement. If they ask questions...that deserves encouragement. If they complain how hard it is and say they may give up...let them give up.
[/quote]

I agree with you up to a point. Many many times I've decided to give up , even to the point where I have written out adverts for all my bass gear, then something happens ( usually on Basschat ) and I realise that playing bass what I do and ultimately its what gives me pleasure and what makes me me.

So what I'm saying is that I think most players will get so frustrated that they consider getting away form the frustration only to realise later on that its all part of the journey but I take your point that if learning music is causing major grief then dont do it ( which is what I think you are saying )

[JTUK]

Teaching is just like music..it is all about the connection. IMO.

[xilddx]

Tell me and I will forget. Show me and I may remember. Involve me and I will understand. (or something like that)
Confucius.

[Skol303]

Teach a man to fish, and his wife will never forgive you.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1366124719' post='2048645']don`t attribute things to people that were never really said[/quote]

Ahaa, well done for spotting that commonly used and gutless tactic so early in your time here!
It's a fairly regular occurrence, usually employed by those who have realised they're wrong in what they're arguing but lack the appendages to openly admit it.

[mushers]

encourage them for the most part i would say, but if you know full well they have not practised since the last time you saw them surely its best to express your disappointment even if its no praise or encouragement ?
telling it like it is ... well thats one point of view but it may not be that way for the other party or anyone else in ear shot

Edited April 16, 2013 by mushers

[peteb]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1366124719' post='2048645']
I don`t believe it was whining.If it did come over as whining then i am sorry, i must get better at expressing myself .I was Merely asking for a little help which most people seemed happy to do,which have been very helpful to me.Even your quote about it not getting any easier.I also never said i was going to give up, so not really sure where that came from.I still enjoy learning, just that sometimes it frustrates.But if you really want to say how it is, don`t attribute things to people that were never really said.I took on board your quote saying it doesn`t get any easier.But if want to come over with attitude, that is your choice.
[/quote]
I didn’t think that you were whining at all, just looking to benefit from the experience of people who have been doing it longer than you…

You are learning the basic foundations of being a musician now – keep at it and in four years time you will be flying...!

[Lowender]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1366122833' post='2048610']
And this is entirely why you should not teach.
[/quote]

I do teach and I'm excellent at it. And my students like me. Many have stayed for years. So...you're wrong again.

[stingrayPete1977]

This makes me think of Vic and Bob and "you just wouldn't let it lye"

What's the fuss with repeated threads, who cares, we don't have to pay per thread or anything!

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1366130209' post='2048752']


Ahaa, well done for spotting that commonly used and gutless tactic so early in your time here!
It's a fairly regular occurrence, usually employed by those who have realised they're wrong in what they're arguing but lack the appendages to openly admit it.
[/quote]

Edited April 16, 2013 by stingrayPete1977

[Dad3353]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1366125720' post='2048674']
Tell me and I will forget. Show me and I may remember. Involve me and I will understand. (or something like that)
Confucius.
[/quote]

[quote]Shock me and I'll pay attention
Douglas[/quote]

Just joshin' slightly (no malice intended...), but I have often had a positive result from 'turning the tables' or moving out of the 'comfort zone' in order to grab the attention of the 'thinking' part of the mind. All depends on circumstances, of course, but a sudden 'thwack' of a steel rule on a desk, or turning round with a red nose on, can focus attention when things get too 'routine'. A 'Powerpoint' presentation, for instance, can be livened up by deliberately inserting an inverted slide of a slip of a girl, like the holiday snaps that your uncle used to project of a dull Sunday (we all had such a relative, didn't we..?). Wakes 'em up. Cruelty is not [i]always [/i]required, but too much mollycoddling is not [i]always [/i]beneficial, either, I've found.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Dad3353

[Musky]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1366130209' post='2048752']
Ahaa, well done for spotting that commonly used and gutless tactic so early in your time here!
It's a fairly regular occurrence, usually employed by those who have realised they're wrong in what they're arguing but lack the appendages to openly admit it.
[/quote]
Is this really necessary?

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1366148238' post='2049063']Is this really necessary?[/quote]

Possibly not - but [i]definitely[/i] wouldn't be if it wasn't actually true.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1366137272' post='2048873']
I do teach and I'm excellent at it. And my students like me. Many have stayed for years. So...you're wrong again.
[/quote]
OK cool. So why did you talk all that sh*te then, inferring incorrectly that he had not enough passion, and telling the guy to give up because he said all this new information sometimes feels too much to handle?

Believe me, I have great passion for music and the times I have felt I can't handle all the information being fed to me are very many. It's because of passion that I kept doing it and didn't give up. If a tutor had told me I should just give up because I didn't have enough passion I'd have felt crushed and even more doubtful of my abilities. It takes a long time to get over that, I am still greatly lacking in musical self-confidence because I appreciate the possibilities of our chosen art and craft are limitless.

Edited April 16, 2013 by xilddx

[Gust0o]

I'd definitely look to encourage, and use the experience to sound out any potential - it's what I do in the workplace, and I think the same rings true here.

I mean, this is a hobby for many players, [i]why wouldn't it be all about encouragement?[/i]

It's only where this begins to drift over into business that you'd have to consider any more dramatic outcomes - the honest conversation, etc.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1366153080' post='2049137']
I'd definitely look to encourage, and use the experience to sound out any potential - it's what I do in the workplace, and I think the same rings true here.

I mean, this is a hobby for many players, [i]why wouldn't it be all about encouragement?[/i]

It's only where this begins to drift over into business that you'd have to consider any more dramatic outcomes - the honest conversation, etc.
[/quote]

A very astute post, especially your hobby observation.

[timmo]

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1366148238' post='2049063']
Is this really necessary?
[/quote]
I don`t mind being called a whiner, that is open to interpretation, and that is how it was interpreted,so fine. It just gets on my nerves when i get things attributed to me that i never said.If there is an argument, fine, but don`t make up lies to support your point of view

[Lowender]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1366152721' post='2049131']
OK cool. So why did you talk all that sh*te then, inferring incorrectly that he had not enough passion, and telling the guy to give up because he said all this new information sometimes feels too much to handle?

Believe me, I have great passion for music and the times I have felt I can't handle all the information being fed to me are very many. It's because of passion that I kept doing it and didn't give up. If a tutor had told me I should just give up because I didn't have enough passion I'd have felt crushed and even more doubtful of my abilities. It takes a long time to get over that, I am still greatly lacking in musical self-confidence because I appreciate the possibilities of our chosen art and craft are limitless.
[/quote]

You keep missing the point. It's fine. Let it go. Just don't use your confusion to put words in my mouth, okay?

Edited April 17, 2013 by Lowender

[timmo]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1366170872' post='2049175']
You keep missing the point. It's fine. Let it go. Just don't use your confusion to put words in my mouth, okay?
[/quote]
Yeah, it isn`t nice having words put into your mouth is it

Edited April 17, 2013 by timmo

[lojo]

Instruments and sports are odd things, if you've the bug to learn , you will , dispute outside influence.

I know a guy who built a studio in his garden , kitted it out with instruments , all for his kids, they are all in thier 20s now and not one of them can play anything, they didn't have the bug!

Yet, me and many others learned to play instruments without any support in doing so

Of course a good teacher will lift you to higher levels , but I don't think bad advice or lack of will force someone who really has the bug to give up

Also , in modern life, learning what to believe on forums spans wider then basschat

Edited April 17, 2013 by lojo

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1366178749' post='2049189']
I know a guy who built a studio in his garden , kitted it out with instruments , all for his kids, they are all in thier 20s now and not one of them can play anything, they didn't have the bug!
[/quote]

This is because getting into music and playing rock and roll is supposed to piss your parents off, teenagers rebel.