Illegal downloading, file-sharing and what i think- what do you think?

[Mr. Foxen]

Do people make cars and booze for people to drink it whilst driving them? Did listening to music make anyone die? Is drinking and driving actually an illegal thing?

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1361220585' post='1983120']
Do people make cars and booze for people to drink it whilst driving them? Did listening to music make anyone die? Is drinking and driving actually an illegal thing?
[/quote]

I suppose if you phrase something the right way, you can justify anything.

[Mr. Foxen]

Hence the line being drawn at illegal, vs not illegal. some things are illegal, and it will never work to draw comparisons between those, and things that are legal.

[MiltyG565]

But Officer, how can you [i]own [/i]a tree. It's not like you can [i]own[/i] a plot of earth. You can't [i]o[/i][i]wn[/i] steel, man.

Despite my pleas, i still got arrested for stealing a guitar.

(disclaimer- This never happened.)

[Mr. Foxen]

How is that in any way relevant to anything? Also, you can't own land here, the Queen owns it, you can just hold it.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Mr. Foxen

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1361222777' post='1983174']
How is that in any way relevant to anything? Also, you can't own land here, the Queen owns it, you can just hold it.
[/quote]

f*** knows. I'm off to bed. Goodnight

[Mog]

Its a tricky one really. If the musician or band is ok with it then I don't have a problem with anyone downloading tunes.

However, once an album is purchased why should anyone have to pay for another copy in a store or online. Eg. Im on my 4th copy of Appetite for Destruction having first purchased it on cassette. I recently downloaded it from itunes as my cd copy was too badly scratched to upload to my laptop. I've had similar experiences with a good few cds but still have to pay for the albums. There wasn't any extra songs on any of them so essentially I recently repurchasing the recording. To me that's wrong and is an example of how the various distributors are exploiting the consumer and the artist. That point is rarely brought up though.

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361219348' post='1983093']
Mmmm, it seems to be. Loads of people speed and drink drive because they think they won't get caught. You're right, people do have a strong sense of morals.
[/quote]

Not quite, I have been known to drive home at 65 miles an hour after a couple of pints of cider because I'm pretty sure it's safe. Legality and morality are not the same thing at all.

[discreet]

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1361226003' post='1983253']
Legality and morality are not the same thing at all.
[/quote]

You got that right, Dave. Mua-ha-hah-ha-hah-haaahhh!!

[daz]

[quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1361181249' post='1982177']
sorry mate but that comment is bollocks. musicians write and record for themselves, cos they wan't to. money isn't the driver behind it.
how many of us here spend time and money in the studio with the intention of making money from it?

i spend hours writing and recording, and have spent a lot of money in studio's and tours with no expectation of making money, if people have thought my music good enough to pay me for then fair play. but i as many muso's do it cos i love music and not money.

if you are going into a studio to make music for the soul intention of making money... then you are in the wrong game
[/quote]

Well said mate. Couldn't have put it clearer myself.

[TimR]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361219348' post='1983093']
Mmmm, it seems to be. Loads of people speed and drink drive because they think they won't get caught. You're right, people do have a strong sense of morals.
[/quote]

Are you telling me that the only reason you don't drink and drive is that you might get caught. The only reason you don't steal things is that you might get caught and the only thing that stops you from assaulting or murdering people you don't like is that you might get caught.

Clearly nonsense.

If you're talking about copying music then I suspect you have a level of morality of your own. If it's an artist that you like and respect you may be more likely to buy the music. If it's a track for you to learn to play in your band that you're only going to listen to a few times then delete or file away then maybe you'd think twice. If it's a multi million selling track that you've already bought on vinyl?

Are you saying the only reason you have not to copy music is that you might get caught?

Edited February 18, 2013 by TimR

[SteveK]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361078387' post='1980710']
Another one said something like- "I'm an electrician. Every time somebody turns on a light, i don't expect to get paid for that. Artists should stop trying to make money from work they did in the past".
[/quote]
The electrician has obviously not really thought it through. If he were to [b]create [/b]and fit a switch that I could sit and [i]look at/listen to[/i], that gave me hours of pleasure, that was totally unique to him... then, that might be a good comparison.

Some bold assertions here...
[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1361144923' post='1981956']

[b]1[/b]. So. Before recorded music, musicians got paid for their time in the same way that practically every single other profession does.

[b]2.[/b] If I was an architect I wouldn't get paid everytime someone walked into a building I designed.

[b]3.[/b] If I worked for Heinz and formulated a new ketchup recipie I wouldn't get paid everytime someone bought ketchup.

[b]4.[/b] Musicians essentially struck a deal with the distributors that everytime they sold a unit then the musician should get a share. No other industry works in this way.

This enabled some musicians to become much more wealthy than their initial efforts warranted. It allowed distinutors and the people who initially invested in the musicians to become far more wealthy than their investment risk warranted.

Far more wealthy than the initial purpose of copyright which was to ensure that musicians were not taken advantage of and were able to continue making music.

Making, recording and distributing music has become easier and cheaper, the rewards are becoming realigned.

It's harder to make money from sales, but then it's harder for everyone to make money now, regardless of their profession.
[/quote]
1. As do the majority of professional musicians today. Composers, quite rightly receive the greater rewards.
2. There are many examples of people having to pay to walk in to a building. Whether the architect is part of the profit sharing would be something for him to negotiate.
3. Then, don't work for Heinz. If you create your own sauce and work to get it in the stores, then you will most likely be paid for every jar sold. That's how it works.
4. Simply, not true!

[Mr. Foxen]

Someone designed the light switch the electrician fitted. Pay them per flip?

[SteveK]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1361279626' post='1983756']
Someone designed the light switch the electrician fitted. Pay them per flip?
[/quote]
I'm not sure if you're having a joke or being serious. In the absence of a smiley, I'll assume that you're serious...

'Pay them per flip?'...Why? I'm not paid per pluck. But certainly, pay the designer of the light switch per unit sold.

[bigjohn]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1361280152' post='1983771']
I'm not sure if you're having a joke or being serious. In the absence of a smiley, I'll assume that you're serious...

'Pay them per flip?'...Why? I'm not paid per pluck. But certainly, pay the designer of the light switch per unit sold.
[/quote]

Do you consider "a unit" as a digital copy of something that can be reproduced over and over with no extra production cost?

(much like a flip?)

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='bigjohn' timestamp='1361281031' post='1983794']
Do you consider "a unit" as a digital copy of something that can be reproduced over and over with no extra production cost?

(much like a flip?)
[/quote]

Not even digital, broadcast, although radio is mostly going digital. One broadcast and the music is played through lots of radios, and the coverage to an extent determines the rate (so college radio will be paying less per play than a national big station), so maybe per bulb turned on or off. The per pluck analogy is false, since it isn't the switch designer operating the switch.

[SteveK]

[quote name='bigjohn' timestamp='1361281031' post='1983794']
Do you consider "a unit" as a digital copy of something that can be reproduced over and over with no extra production cost?

(much like a flip?)
[/quote]Yes, I do... in the same way as a downloadable book or movie, and in the future, when 3D printers are more commonplace, a downloadable light switch.

(much like a flip?)??? No, nothing like a flip .
Are we really comparing music to the flip of a light switch? Anyone coming to this site for the first time would think we're a bunch of nutters

[discreet]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1361291625' post='1984042']
Anyone coming to this site for the first time would think we're a bunch of nutters
[/quote]

That's just completely hat-stand wobbly ding-dong.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1361291625' post='1984042']Are we really comparing music to the flip of a light switch?[/quote]

Hopefully only with the same credibility as the 4 minutes of total silence as an audio track received in a critique; and wasn't someone sued not so long ago for plagiarising or sampling it?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='bigjohn' timestamp='1361281031' post='1983794']
Do you consider "a unit" as a digital copy of something that can be reproduced over and over with no extra production cost?

(much like a flip?)
[/quote]

More that it can be reused. A copy lasts for more than a single listen, unlike a streamed listen. Maybe something like a paper cup would be better comparison, a paper cup is a one use thing, a proper mug is a copy, everyone can make a drinking vessel pretty easily, some circumstances, a disposable plastic one is easier, like from the water cooler at work, but you keep reusable mugs in the kitchen, probably commercially made ones due to quality, but the odd brought home from a craft evening job from a mate/relative. But someone wants paying every time you put a drink in either. Also the mugs in your office have adverts on them, the mugs are given free, but someone is making money off them.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Mr. Foxen

[flyfisher]

How do session musicians get paid?

A fixed price for the session and that's it?

Nothing for the session and a share in royalties ?

A mixture of the above?

[Mr. Foxen]

Depends on their contract. But all the session people I know are one off payments, because they aren't 'artists', they are doing what they are told by the 'artists'.

[discreet]

In my experience session guys get paid a fixed price for the session and that's it. It's extremely rare for a session player to get points on a recording unless they are particularly well-known and/or sought after and/or are known personally to the artist.

Edited February 19, 2013 by discreet

[Mr. Foxen]

That violin part on the Bluebells Young at Heart is the standout example. In that the guy eventually got recognised as being everything good about that tune and got some money, but had to fight for it, since he was a session guy.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Mr. Foxen

[PaulWarning]

sorry if this point been made before but I can't be arsed to wade through it all.
The record companies have only themselves to blame, they've been ripping us off for years, overpriced CD's when they first came out and the constant repackaging of their back catalogue at full price when there's no recording cost to name but 2, and the artist make their fortunes in the end, if they're popular, from live shows which have jumped up in price now they're not susidised by record sales