flyfisher Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361386126' post='1985179'] Taking something which has a price tag without paying for it would fall under the "Loss" heading, making it a crime. That's it black and white. [/quote] What do you think the "loss" is? As soon as you start making an assumption (i.e. that someone would have paid for the music if they couldn;t download it for free) then it's no longer black or white. [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361386126' post='1985179'] I'm smart enough to justify allowing myself to drive faster than 70 on the motorway. I'll get to my destination faster, i have the driving skill to control a car above 70mph. does that mean that i should? no. Does that mean it's any less illegal? no, of course it doesn't. [/quote] Again, taking your '3 basic laws' of injury, loss and harm, what is the problem with driving at 80mph on the motorway if you don't have an accident? Indeed it was only recently that government was considering increasing motorway limits to 80mph, which suggests that the issue really isn't so black and white. Lot's of arbitrary things are illegal and lots of arbitrary things are decriminalised when it is realised that making them illegal is stupid, immoral, unenforceable. Where you can legally put your penis would be a good example of this and how times, and laws, change over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1361388490' post='1985245'] Downloading music isn't illegal. So every reference you make to 'illegally downloading' renders the accompanying statement meaningless. The whole of the point of copying is that there is no loss. [/quote] There's obviously loss to the people who put a price on it. Like i said, just because you are smart enough to justify doing it, [b]still does not mean that you should[/b]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomBassmonkey Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 If a band spent £10,000 making a CD then it sold 0 copies, everyone just copied it, try telling that band that they haven't suffered a loss. If you think it's OK for you to pirate CDs (or any art) then you think it's OK for everyone to do it (unless you think you deserve special treatment?) so by justifying your own piracy, you're justifying that the above situation is fine. If you invest in a company then they tell you "We're now worth 5 times the amount you invested, but sorry, we'll only give you your initial investment back. But it's ok, you haven't lost anything", I assume you wouldn't be happy? What about sneaking into a cinema, is that OK? Why not screw over musicians completely, sneak into gigs for free, it's not a loss right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 [quote name='heminder' timestamp='1361380753' post='1985073'] Streams are self-contained files, they are just played as they are received. [/quote] Not if it's a live event that's being streamed. Again, 'streaming' and 'downloading' are words deliberately chosen to emphasise the differences between these two methods of transmitting data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361389072' post='1985262'] There's obviously loss to the people who put a price on it. Like i said, just because you are smart enough to justify doing it, [b]still does not mean that you should[/b]. [/quote] See example below. And indeed, it isn't a case of should, because there is no obligation to download music, thankfully, because most music is terrible. But do you have the option to do something that is not restricted? Sure, because that is what not restricted means. [quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1361389102' post='1985263'] If a band spent £10,000 making a CD then it sold 0 copies, everyone just copied it, try telling that band that they haven't suffered a loss. [/quote] How much would you have made or lost if you sold 0 copies and no-one copied it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oggiesnr Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1361389286' post='1985266'] See example below. And indeed, it isn't a case of should, because there is no obligation to download music, thankfully, because most music is terrible. But do you have the option to do something that is not restricted? Sure, because that is what not restricted means. [/quote] Out of interest, how do you suggest that any new music gets written and recorded? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1361389008' post='1985261'] Where you can legally put your penis would be a good example of this... [/quote] You mean there are [i]laws [/i]against certain penis placements? Oh my God... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1361389008' post='1985261'] Where you can legally put your penis would be a good example of this and how times, and laws, change over time. [/quote] Oh right, so where am i legally allowed to put my penis now that i wasn't 100 years ago? [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1361389008' post='1985261'] Again, taking your '3 basic laws' of injury, loss and harm, what is the problem with driving at 80mph on the motorway if you don't have an accident? Indeed it was only recently that government was considering increasing motorway limits to 80mph, which suggests that the issue really isn't so black and white. [/quote] The potential for all 3 is heightened due to to decreased amount of reaction time, increased stopping distance (especially when it's raining). Plenty of people have driven at 80 mph on the motorway, and gotten away with it, but that doesn't mean that they should have done it. [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1361389008' post='1985261'] What do you think the "loss" is? As soon as you start making an assumption (i.e. that someone would have paid for the music if they couldn;t download it for free) then it's no longer black or white. [/quote] Why would anybody download music that they weren't willing to pay for? that's just a bit idiotic. [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1361389286' post='1985266'] See example below. And indeed, it isn't a case of should, because there is no obligation to download music, thankfully, because most music is terrible. But do you have the option to do something that is not restricted? Sure, because that is what not restricted means. [/quote] You are taking the word "Should" too literally. Just because you can justify doing something, does not mean that it is OK to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1361389663' post='1985281'] You mean there are [i]laws [/i]against certain penis placements? Oh my God... [/quote] Apparently so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361389877' post='1985293'] Apparently so... [/quote] It's not looking good for me OR that donkey. Or that cabbage/park bench/chicken/small votive bust of Helen Shapiro/Bill Turnbull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 [quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1361389615' post='1985280'] Out of interest, how do you suggest that any new music gets written and recorded? [/quote] I seem to manage it, although not especially inspired at present. As do all of the bands I listen to, what with the being able to listen to them and all. [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361389715' post='1985283'] You are taking the word "Should" too literally. Just because you can justify doing something, does not mean that it is OK to do it. [/quote] So arbitrary rules outside of the law should be applied to people outside of their wishes, by your personal whim? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wil Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 [i]Someone I know [/i]drives at 80mph on the motorway sometimes and downloads music from torrent sites. [i]Someone I know [/i]does buy music from smaller bands and currently active bands, not so much bands that havent existed for 30 years. [i]Someone I know's [/i]justification is that they get where they're going a bit quicker (and drive to suit the conditions, naturally) and by downloading they have an excellent music collection that they otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 [quote name='Wil' timestamp='1361390354' post='1985307'] [i]Someone I know [/i]drives at 80mph on the motorway sometimes and downloads music from torrent sites. [i]Someone I know [/i]does buy music from smaller bands and currently active bands, not so much bands that havent existed for 30 years. [i]Someone I know's [/i]justification is that they get where they're going a bit quicker (and drive to suit the conditions, naturally) and by downloading they have an excellent music collection that they otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford in the first place. [/quote] I'm going to buy an acoustic guitar tomorrow, it's only a cheap one. Obviously, i would love to buy a really well made one, but don't have the budget for that, so i won't have it, because i can't afford it. See the similarity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 [quote name='Wil' timestamp='1361390354' post='1985307'] [i]Someone I know...[/i] [/quote] I bet that's [i]you[/i], that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wil Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361390640' post='1985314'] I'm going to buy an acoustic guitar tomorrow, it's only a cheap one. Obviously, i would love to buy a really well made one, but don't have the budget for that, so i won't have it, because i can't afford it. See the similarity? [/quote] Not really, no, because that person I know would be in exactly the same position if they wanted an acoustic guitar but couldn't afford it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361389715' post='1985283'] Oh right, so where am i legally allowed to put my penis now that i wasn't 100 years ago? [/quote] If you really don't already know the answer to that, I'm sure Google will help you - but it's a digression too far for this topic I'd say. [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361389715' post='1985283'] The potential . . . . [/quote] You can't (sensibly) talk about the potential for something while still claiming it to be black and white. [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361389715' post='1985283'] Why would anybody download music that they weren't willing to pay for? that's just a bit idiotic. [/quote] Try telling that to the teenager on the Clampham omnibus with a 160GB iPod full of downloaded music that they couldn't even AFFORD to pay for even if they really wanted to. Compact cassettes didn't kill music as was widely predicted by the music industry. Videotapes didn't kill cinemas as was widely predicted by the film industry. And downloading won't kill them either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1361390334' post='1985305'] So arbitrary rules outside of the law should be applied to people outside of their wishes, by your personal whim? [/quote] I don't think it's at my whim, i think there are people with a lot more authority than me saying not to. Why would anything i say change how people behave? And peoples "Wishes" aren't always good. f*** whatever wishes people have. Some people wish to try and kill you. Some people wish to fly without any mechanical aids. Why would people's "Wishes" matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wil Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1361390733' post='1985315'] I bet that's [i]you[/i], that is. [/quote] I really have no idea what you mean! Better go anyway, I need to go and answer the metaphorical door, s[i]omeone I know [/i]just turned up with Soft Machine's back catalogue and a few doobies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1361390798' post='1985318'] If you really don't already know the answer to that, I'm sure Google will help you - but it's a digression too far for this topic I'd say. You can't (sensibly) talk about the potential for something while still claiming it to be black and white. Try telling that to the teenager on the Clampham omnibus with a 160GB iPod full of downloaded music that they couldn't even AFFORD to pay for even if they really wanted to. Compact cassettes didn't kill music as was widely predicted by the music industry. Videotapes didn't kill cinemas as was widely predicted by the film industry. And downloading won't kill them either. [/quote] Well, i would class that person no higher than something i would accidentally tread in, and then curse whatever animal left it there. If everyone had your view on this, i'm sure jobs in the music industry would dry up very quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 And if the law you were talking about is the one i think it was- It was a highly discriminatory law, with no legal reasoning for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 If someone offers me something for free, fair enough. I either accept or decline. If someone invests their time and money in making something and sells it through channels designed to inhibit free distribution (however faulty), it seems only polite to respect their wishes. Of course, one may act against the seller's wishes and one may even devise some justification for so doing. But fundamentally, it's one's own wishes versus those of the seller. And observation has shown there is no greater spur to ingenious thought than finding reasons to justify one's own wishes particularly when it comes to getting something for free that other people pay for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumbo Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 The analogies in this thread are hilarious, now if you're all quite finished I must get back to downloading all this free music I found online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltyG565 Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 If you have come on to this thread to stir things up, please don't bother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361390860' post='1985319'] I don't think it's at my whim, i think there are people with a lot more authority than me saying not to. Why would anything i say change how people behave? And peoples "Wishes" aren't always good. f*** whatever wishes people have. Some people wish to try and kill you. Some people wish to fly without any mechanical aids. Why would people's "Wishes" matter? [/quote] Who is this, and how do they have authority over anyone? As far as I know the top authority in this country is the Queen, via her consultation with our elected government, her authority is expressed through Law, and that law says downloading is fine. Maybe you are thinking of people in the industry, corporate leaders, and assign them some sort of power in the running of the state. That thing where corporate leaders have a major say in the running of the state, there is a name for it... [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1361390860' post='1985319'] I don't think it's at my whim, i think there are people with a lot more authority than me saying not to. Why would anything i say change how people behave? And peoples "Wishes" aren't always good. f*** whatever wishes people have. Some people wish to try and kill you. [/quote] Are you trying to pretend things that are illegal are relevant comparisons again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 (edited) [quote name='Wil' timestamp='1361390906' post='1985322'] ...s[i]omeone I know [/i]just turned up with Soft Machine's back catalogue and a few doobies. [/quote] What a coincidence! [i]Someone I know[/i] is just about to nip into the conservatory for a can of cider and a bong! Then [i]he's[/i] going to stream a load of [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Gorky's Zygotic Mynci[/font][/color] from Spotify... Edited February 20, 2013 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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