skankdelvar Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 (edited) [quote name='wateroftyne' post='440597' date='Mar 20 2009, 08:08 PM']I'm off to see a band tonight, and the bass player will be totin' his Jazz that he bought new back in '63. Bosshog of these parts regularly gigs his '66 J. Mine go out the house too.. that's why I bought them. I never understood the 'retirement' philosophy.. they're for playing.[/quote] Oh, I agree, they should be gigged. Gig my 69 P (sorta 'vintage' - well, incredibly battered). Just assuming the worst case scenario, as usual... Edited March 20, 2009 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutToPlayJazz Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 [quote name='wateroftyne' post='440597' date='Mar 20 2009, 08:08 PM']I'm off to see a band tonight, and the bass player will be totin' his Jazz that he bought new back in '63. Bosshog of these parts regularly gigs his '66 J. Mine go out the house too.. that's why I bought them. I never understood the 'retirement' philosophy.. they're for playing.[/quote] I agree with you entirely - I sell on anything I'm not playing or that isn't earning it's keep, hence the sale this week of my 1990 Status SII. I also regularly play live in classical situations with tens of thousands' worth of double bass or cello. I think I said in my for sale thread this week that I'm a player, not a museum curator! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintage_ben Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 (edited) Dare I raise my head on this subject again...... Couldn't agree more with the playing philosophy, I play my '67 Jazz as my main instrument at have a mint '77 stingray that also comes out for gigs short enough to sustain the weight and works great in the studio. The thing that often get forgotten by British players is that the electric guitar is significant part of US cultural history and somewhat of a sacred cow. In a market that is basically driven by American customers the 'museum' factor cannot really be escaped. How many people buy Wurlitzers or old Cadilacs and use them as their main hifi or commuter vehicle, not many I'd guess. These are "show pieces" and it's only fair that some guitars are afforded the same prestige given their impact on the world of popular music. Love them or hate them, most of us wouldn't be bass players if it weren't for Leo's legacy. [quote]On the whole, vintage axes play and sound no better than modern equivalentst[/quote] I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with this is a statement of fact. It's a purely subjective matter and I know players who wouldn't touch a modern bass with a barge pole for good reason. I looked for a number of years to find a Jazz bass that sounded the way I wanted it, I tried every one I could lay my hands on, old and new and settled on my '67. To [b]my ears[/b] I've never heard a better 'Jazz' sound. Clearly technology has moved on over the years and some modern basses allow for some spectacular playing, with actions so low you barely have to touch the strings. Personally I'm not a fan of a low action, but again this only my opinion, who am I to impose my view of what constitutes 'good' playability? I think the truth of the matter that many vintage axes do outperform their modern counterparts (Relic '64 Jazz bass v.s original I'd offer up). A modern active Sadowsky super jazz or other more 'exotic' bass will no doubt outperform a vintage bass in many areas, but I find can fall somewhat short in other respects (in fact a have been scowled at for turning up to a studio with an active bass on more than one occasion) for example if you want an authentic Jamerson sound I think you can't do better than a 60s P-Bass, or indeed a good US reissue will probably outperform most 'super basses' when getting that sound, but is going to be pretty poor if you want to emulate a Mark King or Marcus Miller 'hi-fi sound' (I'm not drawing a comparison between these two as players!). No doubt a Ferrari is technically superior to a VW beetle, but I'd feel much cooler ridding down to Cornwall for a weekends surfing in the later. It's horses for courses really. Edited March 21, 2009 by vintage_ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sercet Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 [quote name='vintage_ben' post='441183' date='Mar 21 2009, 05:50 PM']the 'museum' factor cannot really be escaped.[/quote] I was just about to say that Vintage and Rare is great. It's like a museum where they let you play the exhibits at no charge, and without you feeling that you are in the way. Or perhaps it's like an antique shop...a new digital camera will cost less than an antique Leica, it'll be more convenient and take better pictures; some people will still want an antique Leica. And when I try and sell my old camera to the antique shop, they'll offer me a lot less than they will sell it for. I know that and it's OK by me. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 [quote name='vintage_ben' post='441183' date='Mar 21 2009, 05:50 PM']... for example if you want an authentic Jamerson sound I think you can't do better than a 60s P-Bass ...[/quote] Despite my post about the shop, Ben, there's no personal animosity at all and I'd like to follow up on that comment. If you play a 60's bass today, aren't you hearing something distinctly different from what THAT SAME BASS sounded like 45 years ago? I have to assume that the wood has continued to season and mature, and the electrics have absorbed little changes over the years, so that the bass has a different (more mature?) tone. When Jamerson was laying down his bass-lines he was using a more-or-less new instrument. If you want to get the authentic Jamerson sound, shouldn't you play a new P-bass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintage_ben Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 (edited) It's a reasonable point, I'm not saying that a bespoke instrument made to this spec couldn't sound or play the same, but off the shelf modern equivalents are often made with different materials and by different methods so it's not surprising they sound different, not worse for the most part, just different. Also I'm not sure about the maturing thing, it's really noticeable with an acoustic guitar, and I accept pickups do change a little over time but I think with a solid body maturing is more a feel thing than a sound issue, I may be wrong. For example a pre Ernie Ball Stingray has alnico pole pieces in the pickups, they are now stainless steel, quite a different sound. Just on a purely mechanical level, the factory of the 60s (and certainly the 50s) is not the factory of 2009, a highly automated factory, certainly the case with Fender and Gibson. The way guitars were being made by Fender and Gibson (more-so prior to the 60s) would have been closer to those of a top class luthier, handmade by craftsmen. The available wood stock would have been very different (have ever picked up a late 70s Fender Bass!). There are of course now strong legal points with regards to spraying nitrocellulose and an embargo on Brazilian Rosewood. These all impact on the end product. I was fortunate enough to play a 'new' 63 Strat (i.e it had barely been take out of the case from new), the playability and sound was exceptional and far exceeding most modern Strats I have seen. Having said all that I have seen some really exceptional too custom made reissues with very reasonable price tags, probably 99% there which will do the job no problem. With a price tag of less than £2k vs. £40k+ for an original.. of course I'd go for the new one. But I still maintain that if you want the real deal, you've got to buy real. Still disappointed with new custom shop Fender's though. I tried a Nash weeks back, really really good and was very impressed with a Lakland Duck Dunn I tried a few weeks ago also. Hence the sale of my Warwick in the sales thread.. plug plug [url="http://www.nashguitars.com/timewarp/timewarp_basses.html"]http://www.nashguitars.com/timewarp/timewarp_basses.html[/url] Edited March 21, 2009 by vintage_ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 (edited) So, what you're saying is that Fender and Co are trading on name only and are delivering sub standard instruments in regard to their legacy, and if you want the same sort of quality you need to go to other brands which have a more hands on approach, eg, Rick, Sadowsky, etc... or buy something from the time when they earned their legacy. 'Cus it certainly sounds like that, and it's a point that quite a few people on here have been murmoring for the past year or so. Edited March 21, 2009 by Buzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintage_ben Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 (edited) Not really, my point was I think it's a very difficult task to for a multinational corporation reproduce an [b]identical[/b] guitar to one that was produced 40 years ago using 40 year old tools and techniques, this doesn't imply new instruments are substandard. An example of an exceptional instrument or my personal disappointment in the particular range does not relegate all other instruments as substandard either. Edited March 21, 2009 by vintage_ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 (edited) [quote name='vintage_ben' post='441387' date='Mar 21 2009, 10:17 PM']Not really, my point was I think it's a very difficult task to for a multinational corporation reproduce an [b]identical[/b] guitar to one that was produced 40 years ago using 40 year old tools and techniques, this doesn't imply new instruments are substandard....[/quote] If they're not sub-standard, does this mean they're not sub-standard to the standard set by vintage instruments? So, (removing our double-negatives), that modern guitars are of comparable standard? Or might it be the case that [i]some[/i] vintage instruments, at a peak, are functionally 'better' than the majority of instruments produced today? IMO, out there in the world are some really good vintage items, a lot of very poor vintage items and a sea of relatively well-produced modern instruments, available at prices, which if adjusted backwards for inflation, would just about have bought a Mars Bar in 1958. While I love, covet and occasionally trade vintage instruments, I can't buy into the idea that 'vintage' status automatically confers universal functional superiority. In any case, the term 'vintage' has become utterly devalued, as various chancers take angle-grinders to seventies Fenders and flog them to wide-eyed herberts. (Funny how I don't see as many 'reliced' Gibsons) That said, I believe V&R usually carry a stock of pretty interesting gear at fairly reasonable prices (compared to the stratospheric idiocy seen on e-bay) and that their business practises are as good, if not better, than their competitors. Just an opinion. Edited March 22, 2009 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 [quote name='vintage_ben' post='441286' date='Mar 21 2009, 08:16 PM']Hence the sale of my Warwick in the sales thread.. plug plug [url="http://www.nashguitars.com/timewarp/timewarp_basses.html"]http://www.nashguitars.com/timewarp/timewarp_basses.html[/url][/quote] Ah but your modern Warwick sounds 'different' from vintage Warwicks as the production techniques were different back in the 80's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintage_ben Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 I've been told the pre 2000s Warwick sound different although I've not tried a new one to compare, maybe it's related to the amount of hairspray being used by factory staff? Take an 70's to ad 80s to a 90s Stingray (all 2 band eq). At a glance visually identical but construction-wise and on the inside completely different. You can barely get them to sound the same. I suppose it's by which one you set your 'standard'. Again, its all purely subjective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 It's all ridiculous trying to recapture the vintage sound... it doesn't matter how old the bass... Electricity feeding the amps has changed... amps just doesn't sound the same running off modern electricity ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twigman Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 (edited) [quote name='EBS_freak' post='442665' date='Mar 23 2009, 05:00 PM']It's all ridiculous trying to recapture the vintage sound... it doesn't matter how old the bass... Electricity feeding the amps has changed... amps just doesn't sound the same running off modern electricity ;)[/quote] What you need Sir is bank of super capacitors that were charged with genuine vintage electricity in the 50s and 60s. I think I might have some old lead acid batteries from my old Triumph that were last charged in the 60s - they too would contain original vintage electricity - unless of course it's all escaped by now. Edited March 23, 2009 by Twigman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 There's also some vintage German electricity stored on the sea-bed at Scapa Flow. Not a lot of people know that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote name='Happy Jack' post='442828' date='Mar 23 2009, 06:30 PM']There's also some vintage German electricity stored on the sea-bed at Scapa Flow. Not a lot of people know that.[/quote] But German electricity would sound different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote name='Clive Thorne' post='443478' date='Mar 24 2009, 09:57 AM']But German electricity would sound different.[/quote] What we really want is a load of vintage Yank electricity. Where can we find that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twigman Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote name='EBS_freak' post='443531' date='Mar 24 2009, 10:44 AM']What we really want is a load of vintage Yank electricity. Where can we find that?[/quote] The best amps were Brit though so we need vintage Brit leccy.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote name='Twigman' post='443560' date='Mar 24 2009, 11:12 AM']The best amps were Brit though so we need vintage Brit leccy....[/quote] I can feel this thread decending into a Marshall vs Fender debate. American amps win for me I am afraid... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote name='EBS_freak' post='443797' date='Mar 24 2009, 02:19 PM']I can feel this thread decending into a Marshall vs Fender debate. American amps win for me I am afraid...[/quote] But the only reason they sound any good is because your running them on British electricity! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote name='Clive Thorne' post='444048' date='Mar 24 2009, 06:14 PM']But the only reason they sound any good is because your running them on British electricity![/quote] So why didn't the British amps sound good on British electricity? Do the British amps require American electricity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote name='EBS_freak' post='443797' date='Mar 24 2009, 02:19 PM']I can feel this thread decending into a Marshall vs Fender debate.[/quote] I can feel this thread decending into a British electricity vs American electricity debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilLordJuju Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote name='EBS_freak' post='442665' date='Mar 23 2009, 05:00 PM']It's all ridiculous trying to recapture the vintage sound... it doesn't matter how old the bass...[/quote] It isn't how old the bass per se... A lot of basses built in the past were made with the fashion of the day in mind. 50s and early 60s basses were built to sound a bit like uprights - a nice thumpy sound. Pickups positions, mutes, number of windings in a pickup, choice of woods and construction etc.... (i'm talking mostly about Gibson here - but i'm sure these examples fit other brands to varying extents) Plus in 1953, a lump of wood from a 400 year old mahogany tree was a lot more likely (and wood harvested from an old tree has different grain characteristics, and sonic qualities). A skilled builder (such as the 50s and 60s Gibson employees) could do things like tap a top and ascertain something about how it resonates, and whether it need carving more. How many people have that skill today? Today, really ancient trees tend not to be used, pickups have all drifted towards the bridge. Bass manufacturers don't necessarily use the same species woods, and pickup designs tend to favour a different sound. Nobody wants to sound like a thumpy double bass. The actual design, woods, and components of a vintage bass define it's sound. Had someone in 1955 built a bubinga bass with pickups right up against the bridge, i'm sure they would not have a particularly vintage sounding bass, even at 50 years old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 [quote name='EBS_freak' post='444051' date='Mar 24 2009, 06:17 PM']So why didn't the British amps sound good on British electricity? Do the British amps require American electricity?[/quote] [Bullshit alert/] Because the American amps were designed for 60 Hz, and British electricity at 50 hz is just that more laid back, if you powered a British amp on 40 Hz it would sound awesome. [/Bullshit alert] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 [quote name='EBS_freak' post='444054' date='Mar 24 2009, 06:18 PM']I can feel this thread decending into a British electricity vs American electricity debate.[/quote] No debate required, everyone knows that British electricity is the best in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 [quote name='Clive Thorne' post='444590' date='Mar 25 2009, 12:32 AM'][Bullshit alert/] Because the American amps were designed for 60 Hz, and British electricity at 50 hz is just that more laid back, if you powered a British amp on 40 Hz it would sound awesome. [/Bullshit alert][/quote] No bullshit about that mate. Absolute gospel. If you place your amp 90 degrees to the socket, the phase difference makes the amp sound amazing. Gives it a certain organic quality about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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