Most young virtuoso drummers and bassists sound the same as eachother

[xilddx]

[quote name='chardbass' timestamp='1345975618' post='1783636']
I'm reminded of that famous video (think it was a Zildjan Drum Day or sim) with Weckl, Colauita and Gadd. The first two were heavy in thrills and chops and Gadd absolutely shone with feel and taste beyond comparison.
3 unique, or at least instantly recognisable, voices in the drum world at that time.
[/quote]
I like that video, all three are distinct to me, they all sound different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln6b_nBM-V8

[xilddx]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1345976798' post='1783654']
This has long been the view of many musicians that I've met and worked with (over many years) who have learnt their craft doing it the old fashioned way, ie. locking themselves away in their bedroom and eventually joining a band and honing their skills on the road in seedy pubs and clubs.
Generally speaking, those that didn't have much to say or felt that they were not listened to would fall by the wayside. Those that had something different to say and were applauded would often go on to be innovators.
Many of those from the colleges, while being virtuosos (in asmuch as they know their way around their instrument and more theory than I'll ever know), simply don't have anything different to say. Of course, there will always be the exception.
[/quote]
That's a very interesting view from the professional long termer side of the fence, thanks Steve.

I grew up with the hope of being in a situation like yours one day. I suppose the pinnacle of the band situation for me was always something like Rush. Great friends playing together for decades in one band, each member having a style that sounds like no-one else, and no-one else sounding like them, just having a style that suits the band, not being a great all-rounder who can do anything with anyone, that to me is more mechanical than musical, nothing wrong with that of course as long as you can do it with taste and style.

[Bilbo]

Something was posted on here recently saying that pop music was increasingly homogenised. Is it any wonder that the musicians playing it are equally homogenised? Its the difference between art and craft. You can 'learn' how to be a craftsman but being an artist takes a whole different set of disciplines and investment. Faster, higher or further is just the mechanics . I remember talking to someone about studying composition in university and they said that it tells you how to develop stuff but it won't give you the ideas in the first place. Kind of covers it in my view. Great chops is the starting point not the end point.

[chris_b]

I like listening to some of these virtuoso players with their amazing techniques, but the leveller is; what would they, with their massive ability, play if they got a gig playing for the Who, Queen or the Doobie Brothers?

I feel much happier knowing that they'll be playing exactly what I'd play.
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[xilddx]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1345978801' post='1783680']
Something was posted on here recently saying that pop music was increasingly homogenised. Is it any wonder that the musicians playing it are equally homogenised? Its the difference between art and craft. You can 'learn' how to be a craftsman but being an artist takes a whole different set of disciplines and investment. Faster, higher or further is just the mechanics . I remember talking to someone about studying composition in university and they said that it tells you how to develop stuff but it won't give you the ideas in the first place. Kind of covers it in my view. Great chops is the starting point not the end point.
[/quote]
Exactly. But there is also the self-discipline issue that I think most musicians suffer, I mean, having a monster penis doesn't mean the subtleties of foreplay aren't necessary anymore. Sorry for the lame analogy

[fretmeister]

When they come out of Berklee / GIT / whatever they merely leave having mastered the language.

Doesn't mean their first attempt at a novel will be worth reading. That needs time.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1345979294' post='1783692']
I like listening to some of these virtuoso players with their amazing techniques, but the leveller is; what would they, with their massive ability, play if they got a gig playing for the Who, Queen or the Doobie Brothers?
[/quote]

The more important test is not whether they can fill in the for the musicians on a performance level, but whether they can do the same on a creative level.

The thing that made all these bands great wasn't the instrumental skill of the musicians but the fact they wrote some fantastic songs.

Edited August 26, 2012 by BigRedX

[SteveK]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1345979582' post='1783697']
When they come out of Berklee / GIT / whatever they merely leave having mastered the language.

Doesn't mean their first attempt at a novel will be worth reading. That needs time.
[/quote]True! Unfortunately, it often appears that many think chops and theory are the be-all and end-all.
I can learn all the intricacies of MS Word, learn how to punctuate, study literary theory and composition...I'd still be a million miles away from Shakespeare.
Whether literature or music, learning/studying all this stuff is obviously a significant step in the right direction, but... it is only one step of many required to be a truly great writer or musician.

[RichF]

Similar things happening in academia. We have industrialised learning, producing great technicians who fill up conference after conference and journal after journal but there's very little original thought or wisdom. I ain't too worried cause I am not sure this is sufficient to suppress true genius. I am not a pro musician (or an academic) so I don't know whether all these technical experts adversely affect the system but I still buy the music I buy and don't seem to see any direct impact on the output.

[steve-bbb]

im going to go out on a limb here and challenge your use of virtuoso!

i totally agree with you regarding the high numbers of younger musicians and students with outstanding 'technical ability' - didnt we have a thread on here a while back about the definition of virtuoso? just had a wee search but cant find it - anyways - to me it means a very great deal more than just technical ability

and its not just music students either - there are many drummers and guitarists locally around here who are self taught and technically very very good and there is little to separate them all side by side - but place them up on stage with an old sweat who's been playing for 40+ years and it is often quite apparent where experience comes into the equation and makes the difference with style/presentation/voicing etc etc knowing where/what to play and where not to play blah blah blah

i guess the thing that gives the technical adept music students the edge over their peer group is the ability to learn/develope on a personal level all the attributes of virtuosity that cant be taught so easily if at all - very few people are born with magic ears but they do develope over time

[fretmeister]

Virtuoso is a word that is massively over used.

BGM called David Ellefson a virtuoso in the latest mag. He's a solid player, certainly and very good at what he does. But has he mastered the instrument or indeed music? Can he be mentioned in the same breath as Nigel Kennedy?

No?

Well he's not a virtuoso then.

[xilddx]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1345992068' post='1783863']
Virtuoso is a word that is massively over used.

BGM called David Ellefson a virtuoso in the latest mag. He's a solid player, certainly and very good at what he does. But has he mastered the instrument or indeed music? Can he be mentioned in the same breath as Nigel Kennedy?

No?

Well he's not a virtuoso then.
[/quote]

Ha, I saw that and thought the same thing

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1345971700' post='1783582']
Long term, what produces a better all round bass player?

1) Someone who has studied the extremes of the instrument, realised they've overplayed and used judgement to get back to something tasteful that suits the song

or

2) Some lazy, useless plodder like me who can only play simple stuff and has to search around in my empty brain whenever I want to play something vaguely interesting
[/quote]

as alanis would say .... isnt it ironic .... that both/either options will often produce more or less the same end result

Edited August 26, 2012 by steve-bbb

[xilddx]

[quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1345995103' post='1783894']
as alanis would say .... isnt it ironic .... that both/either options will often produce more or less the same end result
[/quote]
That is not ironic

[Chris2112]

I have felt for a while now that 'new' bass virtuosos are just not as exciting in a musical sense as the older generation. Looking back to the 70's, 80's and 90's, you had the likes of Stuart Hamm, Victor Wooten, Jonas Hellborg, Jaco Pastorius etc etc. Within just a few notes, you knew it was that player. They were musically distinct and had their own identities. I feel like now, a lot of the youtube virtuosos sound pretty samey.

[Doddy]

[quote name='bobbass4k' timestamp='1345929562' post='1783357']
I've always been suspicious of "virtuosos", does anyone actually [i]enjoy [/i]solo virtuoso bass and drum music? It seems to me most people are just impressed with the ability and technicallity. Whenever I see or hear comments on the playing of people like Wooten it's always "wow he's amazing, that double thumbing is so fast!" not "wow, that melody is so beautiful".
[/quote]
There are certainly people who enjoy this kind of music,that's why there is a market for it.
The thing with someone like Wooten,is that his chops are obvious and all over Youtube,so it's easy to comment on.Yet,if people dig
deeper,they will hear some really nice melodies,both in his solo work and with the Flecktones (tunes like 'Reminiscence' or Ari's Eyes'
spring to mind). Plus no one talks about his groove playing on albums by people like India Arie and Keller Williams.



[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1345980623' post='1783715']
The more important test is not whether they can fill in the for the musicians on a performance level, but whether they can do the same on a creative level.

The thing that made all these bands great wasn't the instrumental skill of the musicians but the fact they wrote some fantastic songs.
[/quote]

You are talking about two very different things here though. There are many great musicians (both famous and not) who don't
write music for whatever reasons,but it does not diminish what they do in any way.Likewise there are people who would struggle
to play a simple C chord,but can write great lyrics.
Someone who writes a good song isn't necessarily superior to a great performer.

[AttitudeCastle]

[quote name='stu_g' timestamp='1345931568' post='1783385']
i agree i was watching some bass playing on youtube the other week i forget who it was some virtuoso of the bass and i sat there thinking why dont you just buy a guitar because in a band situation with a singer how is that kind of playing any real use alot of notes and fancy technique but no real feeling and i just came to the conclusion he was an only child who wanted attention
[/quote]

Well, that depends entirely. What if their band has no singer? What if what they do they find heavily emotive and expressive? Everyone is very different. You can't tell someone how much they connect and emote from something they play as much as I can tell you how much to like a film/book/song/tell you what and how you feel.

Surely by default he owns a guitar, it's a bass guitar

However yes, I understand your point.

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1345971105' post='1783572']
I think a big part of the problem is that bass guitar just isn't a nice-sounding solo instrument. Particularly when players crank the treble so they can fanny about with harmonics. You end up hearing as much mechanical noise as you do note.

Virtuoso double bass players are a different kettle of fish, although I suppose they have a repertoire provided for them, or at worst 'cello pieces they can make a decent fist of. They don't have to ruin some other instrument's music as much as bass guitarists do.
[/quote]

I, personally, love the sound of the bass guitar as a solo instrument in both senses, (so as a focus and simply on it's own) it's why I play the thing! I just really connect with the lower registers hence why I sing down there and play other instruments in the same range. And everyone has different tastes in tone too!

I agree, I think not having anything really to play is a big part of it.

It is slowly growing though. I recently was asked to debut a Sonata for Electric bass, keen to get my hands on it when it's finished!

[bobbass4k]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1346000258' post='1783955']
There are certainly people who enjoy this kind of music,that's why there is a market for it.
The thing with someone like Wooten,is that his chops are obvious and all over Youtube,so it's easy to comment on.Yet,if people dig
deeper,they will hear some really nice melodies,both in his solo work and with the Flecktones (tunes like 'Reminiscence' or Ari's Eyes'
spring to mind). Plus no one talks about his groove playing on albums by people like India Arie and Keller Williams.
[/quote]

That's kind of what I was getting at, to me most of the audience just seem to enjoy the technical ability and the "woah, I could never play that!" factor. I suppose it's a little subjective to say that that's not enjoying it, but that's not how I enjoy music, I enjoy complexity sure, but one of my favourite songs is just the C pentatonic scale for 3 minutes, because I think It's a beautiful song, I just don't have that kind of response with solo bass stuff.

I honestly don't think I've ever come across a fan of a solo bass "virtuoso" who wasn't a bassist or a musician. I remember seeing a video of Manring at a bass clinic, and he started playing this pretty simple melody which I actually really liked, then he started doing all this fancy twiddly harmonic stuff and that's when everyone started clapping and cheering. I don't argue that players like Wooten can and do play some great grooves, but that's not what they're known for, and not why they're popular

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1346000258' post='1783955']
You are talking about two very different things here though. There are many great musicians (both famous and not) who don't write music for whatever reasons,but it does not diminish what they do in any way.Likewise there are people who would struggle to play a simple C chord,but can write great lyrics.
Someone who writes a good song isn't necessarily superior to a great performer.
[/quote]

To my mind that is very pre-Beatles thinking.

When I discovered pop and rock music in the early 70s all the bands that I admired wrote their own songs. As an impressionable teenager, playing rock music was inextricably linked to the act of composition. The idea of being just a musician and having no creative input into the music being played was almost completely alien and reserved for un-hip classical orchestral players only.

When I started learning to play the guitar at 13 it wasn't just to be able to play an instrument, but a stepping stone to being able to write my own songs. When later I started playing bass and keyboards and then programming synthesisers, drum machines, sequencers it was as much about understanding each instruments place in an arrangement and how knowledge of what was possible with each instrument made me a better composer.

IMO if you are able to play a piece of music with any real passion you must have enough of an understanding of how the music works for you to be able to create your own too.

[Doddy]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1346010068' post='1784110']
IMO if you are able to play a piece of music with any real passion you must have enough of an understanding of how the music works for you to be able to create your own too.
[/quote]

I don't agree with that at all. It is totally possible to play with feeling and passion whilst not having the desire or inspiration
to create your own music. People do it all the time. There are loads of great singers who put a lot of emotion into the songs
they sing,yet the songs were written by someone else-just listen to some of the great music that comes out of Nashville,for example.