Barefaced vs Berg NV610/other 6x10s

[winterfire666]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1341400511' post='1718266']
I have serious doubts a 2x12 can get close to a good 410
[/quote]
i beg to differ my super 12 is both louder, and cleaner than my previous setup (swr goliath III 4x10 and swr big ben 1x18) and can easily mathch the bottom end with a light touch of EQ
its also a quater of the size and just over a quater of the weight too, something to consider.
Its hands down the best cab i have ever used and cant recommend them enough.

[charic]

I still (and I'm not the only one) feel that the Barefaced cabs are lacking 'something'. Each to their own but when A/B'd at the bass bash they just didn't stack up for me

[discreet]

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1341407735' post='1718465']
I still (and I'm not the only one) feel that the Barefaced cabs are lacking 'something'. Each to their own but when A/B'd at the bass bash they just didn't stack up for me[/quote]

Was that solo or in a band mix? You can see where I'm going with this, can't you...

[ben604]

All good feedback. I need to get to a bash and have a listen to a wider array of cabs and amps, I think! Obviously, I'm not giving up bass forever when I go travelling, so I'll need something to look forward to when I return!

[discreet]

[quote name='ben604' timestamp='1341408066' post='1718471']
All good feedback. I need to get to a bash and have a listen to a wider array of cabs and amps, I think![/quote]

Better yet, try 'em yourself in a band situation.
As I implied above, this makes a huge difference to your perception.

Edited July 4, 2012 by discreet

[Musicman20]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1341407793' post='1718466']


Was that solo or in a band mix? You can see where I'm going with this, can't you...
[/quote]

I get where you are coming from, but still, it's got to sound right to you hasn't it?!

[Musicman20]

I'd quite like my old HS410 back! Let me know if you don't buy it.

[charic]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1341407793' post='1718466']
Was that solo or in a band mix? You can see where I'm going with this, can't you...
[/quote]

It was solo but IMHO it matters just as much then as any other time

[discreet]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1341408901' post='1718497']
I get where you are coming from, but still, it's got to sound right to you hasn't it?!
[/quote][quote name='charic' timestamp='1341409293' post='1718510']
It was solo but IMHO it matters just as much then as any other time [/quote]

Is this going to be a five-minute argument, or the full half-hour?

[bigjohn]

Out of interest Charic (and not to wander too far off topic), which cabs do you like?

Also - I'm not quite sure about a 2x12 not being able to do what a 6x10 or 4x10 does.

Cabs all have their pros and cons and work better or worse depending on what you put into em.

Edited July 4, 2012 by bigjohn

[eddiehoffmann]

I do think my Super 12 sounds different to all the other cabinets I had. When I got mine I took it straight to a studio where I had rehearsed the day before with the same band, amp and bass. The only difference is that the day before I had the Aguilar GS212. Straight away I noticed I would have to change the eq settings I was used too. With the Aggie I had the controls on my 550 Spyder at noon for bass and treble and a mids at 1 o'clock. With the Super 12 I had to turn the low and treble down to about 10 o'clock and the mids to noon. Alex told me the S12 is not supposed to colour the tone. Obviously, like any new cabinet, it's going to take a bit of tweaking to find the best sound. The main difference I noticed between the Aggie and the S12 is that the Barefaced fills the room a bit more, if that makes sense... It's a cab that spreads the sound of the bass better than any other combination I tried. I really recommend you to give it try. Shame about the time you have to wait for one. But... I guess the enormous demand for them and the fact that you never see a second hand one says a lot.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1341409424' post='1718514']
Is this going to be a five-minute argument, or the full half-hour?
[/quote]

Haha, we all have different requirements. I know the gig is what matters, but for me, it has to also sound pretty close to what I am after on its own, cranked to a decent level, If it doesn't, then the £1000 or whatever it may be is going on something else that sounds good in the mix and on its own.

Tone is not just about the mix, its subjective. Otherwise, why would you get players that scream out of the mix like Flea (still in the mix but absolutely one of the main parts of RHCP) or players that blend and just hold it down.

[charic]

[quote name='bigjohn' timestamp='1341409611' post='1718519']
Out of interest Charic (and not to wander too far off topic), which cabs do you like?
[/quote]

All ampegs I've tried
My TC cabs
Tried some Warwick cabs which were alright
Mesa...

Erm....

[bigjohn]

I like Ampeg cabs too. Especially with Ampeg heads.

They do have that low mid hump though don't they? Don't TC cabs do that?

That low mid hump is great if that's what your amp does.

[charic]

No idea I didn't look at the spec, just used my ears.

My ears don't agree with any Barefaced cab I've heard yet, I'll keep the YET in there though

[4000]

My Barefaced (a mere Compact) is very, very neutral sounding; it is how you eq it. If you don't eq it it sounds (with me through it at least) very "meh". In an ideal world I'd like a bit more bark from the cab (my very early pre-vinyl, pre-Kevlar Trace 4x10 had that in spades) but I haven't been able to find it in anything like as light a package. FWIW I've never liked any Ampeg cabs I've tried (or SWR for that matter). I had a pair of Aggie GS112s at one point and they were arguably my least favourite cabs I've ever owned (my Compact is way better than they were), but I have to say I don't generally get on with the tone of 12s.

[bigjohn]

Aye, very neutral. The plus side of that obviously is that you can put different things in and get different things out.

So rather than relying on the cab to sound right, you can get amps and pre-amps and twiddle them there knobs.

[Musicman20]

I tested a BF Compact (early version) and I didn't think it was neutral, to my ears anyway. They can really wallop in the low end (push a lot of air) but even after boosting mids I didn't get any 'cut'. May have just been a bad room, or whatever.

[JTUK]

Might be a predominately bass orientated cab and the problem with that thinking..... IMO... Is that then you can then sacrifice tone and character as you have dialled out the mids which can give it that. GS112 cab suffer the same...: great low end but you have to work hard not to lose its soul. Too much bass is tone less for my tastes

[LawrenceH]

A lot of bass cabs really aren't neutral at all... the Kappalite 3015 is a clean driver with a ~3dB rise in the upper mids and goes quite high on axis for a 15. I remember talking to Alex about this on here as coming from PA and hifi I felt even that 3dB was a lot, but really it's nothing compared to how bumpy other bass cabs are! If you are used to less clean drivers with big midrange spikes, which're exacerbated in cabs without much or any damping (most bass cabs!), then it might well sound a bit lifeless in comparison.
You are much closer to neutral with the kappalite in a well braced and damped cab but neutral is a long way from typical with bass guitar! I also think 'neutral' cabs benefit more from a tweeter than other more typical designs, and the BF is notably tweeterless.

Back more on topic. I'd hazard a guess that the 12" drivers used by Aguilar in both the DB and GS cabs are the same (but in different box tunings) and an OEM variant of the Eminence Delta 12/12LF/Pro series, using the cast frame of the latter with the smaller magnet of the former 2. They can tweak the designs to give more or less bass output and power handling, trading that off against overall sensitivity and upper-mid/HF (probably closer to the 12LF designs given the stated sensitivities). But that basic frame/magnet isn't going to match the output of a good 410, it won't have the excursion and to make matters worse you're dispersing the sound more broadly with 2 12s versus a 410 . The mostly ignored flip side of increased dispersion is reduced forward 'throw'. Similarly most neo 12s are variants of the deltalite 2512 (eg SL112), again this doesn't have the excursion to beat a good pair of tens. The Kappalites in the Barefaced are significantly more capable basic designs than these, but the HO variant of the 12s is voiced to give a strong upper-mid bite compared to the bass and low-mid. It'll kick out the bass if you throw power at it but the high sensitivity of the upper end will dominate the perceived sound unless you pad it back. I've no idea what crossover is in the super 12 but it could well play an important role in shaping the sound. It won't have the same low-mid hump as a lot of the delta/deltalite based designs either so the voicing at low volume is going to lack girth without EQ.

There's no 'sound of 10 v 12' but there ARE common 10" and 12" drivers which dominate the market, with particular voicings and limits to their capabilities so in a sense people're right to say a 610 or even a 410 will beat a 212 - just important to recognise that it's just a function of which drivers are commonly used rather than inherent. Comparing 4 or 6 10s to 2 12s, you're at a point where which one comes out ahead in terms of bass output and total volume depends entirely on quality of drivers employed rather than diameter. With the market leading manufacturers the 410s will usually win. FWIW I think Bergantino use pretty hefty 10s, I'd bet on it going louder than the super 12 in the low mids but since it's sealed the BF could put out more sub-80Hz before reaching its limit, I'm guessing it'd need a lot of EQ to sound similar to the Bergantino though!

Edited July 5, 2012 by LawrenceH

[JTUK]

[size=5][sub]I think the drivers in the DB112 are the same as the GS112 and you are right to say the cab design gives each cab the different attributes.[/sub][/size]

[size=5][sub]I have a spare Ag model 12 and can't quite recall its model number... If doesn't matter though as this is specific to Aguilar anyway ( I guess ) and they aren't likely to make it common knowledge what driver it is based on.[/sub][/size]

[size=5][sub]P.S driver for sale.. as new, unboxed [/sub][/size]

[51m0n]

http://basschat.co.uk/topic/99358-lh500-%26gt%3B-super-twelve-vs-mb-sa450-%26gt%3B-bergantino-ae410-comparison/page__hl__super%20twelve%20berg%20ae410

May give some clues?

Against an ae410 I grant you, but still interesting I hope?

[Musicman20]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1341591558' post='1721566']
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/99358-lh500-%26gt%3B-super-twelve-vs-mb-sa450-%26gt%3B-bergantino-ae410-comparison/page__hl__super%20twelve%20berg%20ae410"]http://basschat.co.u...%20berg%20ae410[/url]

May give some clues?

Against an ae410 I grant you, but still interesting I hope?
[/quote]

Did you end up getting a BF cab then?

[51m0n]

I didnt, no, I still have the same MB->Berg rig, but this was some friends of mine a while ago who were lookign for a rig.

Yes they did go for the SuperTwelveT and the LH500, and I 've heard it fill several large pubs and keep up with decent PA's on a few occasions since. Fantastic rig, can't recommend it enough....