How to get a deeper sound around Bf on the G string from a 5 string bass?

[molan]

So here's an interesting little question for everyone. . .

I spent some time with a seriously good pro player yesterday and he's had a bit of an issue for one particular gig he currently has.

His MD wants an older school deep thuddy kind of sound but clear note definition. He's using Thomastic Infeld flats, muting with his palm most of the time and picking with his thumb. Definitely a neck pickup only sound so P basses were most obvious option.

Sounds really quite nice actually

Anyway, his issue on most basses is that the first three - four frets on the G string sound too 'thin' on most basses and he's having to work around not using these frets which is pretty annoying as he's obviously having to play whole songs in different 'unnatural' places.

He can get the sound he wants from an older Fender P - his preference is late 70's ash bodied ones. However, he needs a 5 string for lots of songs &, of course, Fender weren't making 5's back in the 60's / 70's.

The closest he's actually found so far to the sound he wants is from a fairly recent bog standard US P5. It's a good workhorse bass but he feels he can get a better quality of overall tone from something a bit further up the quality scale. Money is not a major object here as it's his working tool.

It was really interesting to hear him playing a few different basses and demonstrating what he meant - I could clearly hear the issue on everything apart from my '72P bass (not a 5 of course!).

So - anyone got any thoughts on this? He's loathe to try a much heavier G string as he has a favourite gauge of TI flats. It would be easy to say that the tone he wants doesn't exist but it's certainly there on a vintage P & a relatively modern P5 as well.

We discussed simply moving the lower pickup of a P bass so that it's closer to the neck than the bridge (like a Warwick or Spector 4 string) but I'm not aware of anyone who offers this option on a 5 string?

All thoughts or recommendations much appreciated

[BassBus]

If I follow you correctly, Scott Devine has just posted his secret way around this.

[url="http://www.scottdevinemusic.com/how-to-make-your-4-string-sound-like-a-5-string"]http://www.scottdevinemusic.com/how-to-make-your-4-string-sound-like-a-5-string[/url]

Edited June 15, 2012 by BassBus

[molan]

We did discuss using effects pedals but he really wants to just go direct (the gig involves a hugely changing set & the MD is very demanding about maintaining a 'natural' sound).

It's surprisingly frustrating really because the tone he wants exists on old P basses but not anything more modern and with 5 strings

[Lozz196]

If money is no object, and going from how good Shukers JJ Sig bass looks (and reads), why not see if they can help out with a 5 string Precision type bass, made from Ash.

Though have to admit, I also find this - even on my 77 Ash Bodied Precision. I rarely touch the G string, preferring the higher frets on the other strings to get the thickness - plus it makes me look flashier to the untrained eye

[Graham]

Sadowsky offer to reverse the pickup on their 5-string precisions, maybe that would work? Of course, if the coil for the bass side is closer to the bridge that might cause other problems.

[51m0n]

Man up and get a bigger g string?

What strings are on you old P?

[molan]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1339758312' post='1693791']
If money is no object, and going from how good Shukers JJ Sig bass looks (and reads), why not see if they can help out with a 5 string Precision type bass, made from Ash.

Though have to admit, I also find this - even on my 77 Ash Bodied Precision. I rarely touch the G string, preferring the higher frets on the other strings to get the thickness - plus it makes me look flashier to the untrained eye
[/quote]

Funnily enough we had a Shuker 5 P custom bass with an EMG pickup to try & I think it came about the closest to the sound we were trying to achieve.

I'd forgotten about the JJB bass though, definitely worth considering

[molan]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1339758650' post='1693798']
Man up and get a bigger g string?

What strings are on you old P?
[/quote]

That was exactly my first thought

He's using TI flats that are something like 43 / 56 / 70 / 100 / 136

These are the same strings that just happened to be on my '72 as well. This was how he demonstrated he could get the sound he wanted from a 43 G string.

[gjones]

This may sound like a stupid question but has he tried muting with foam at the bridge for a more consistent sound across the full range of notes. I know some pros hate it because they have the skill to palm mute but that was how they got that original sound in the 60s and it sounds fantastic (and consistant). I'm sure his MD would love it.

[51m0n]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1339758926' post='1693811']
That was exactly my first thought

He's using TI flats that are something like 43 / 56 / 70 / 100 / 136

These are the same strings that just happened to be on my '72 as well. This was how he demonstrated he could get the sound he wanted from a 43 G string.
[/quote]

Yes but are the strings the same age in both cases?

String age affects a lot of characteristics wrt flexibility and that may well change the perceived timbre too.

Just a thought!

[JTUK]

Min 45 or maybe a 50. or don't play those notes on the G string if they have to have that weight about them.

[molan]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1339760468' post='1693840']
This may sound like a stupid question but has he tried muting with foam at the bridge for a more consistent sound across the full range of notes. I know some pros hate it because they have the skill to palm mute but that was how they got that original sound in the 60s and it sounds fantastic (and consistant). I'm sure his MD would love it.
[/quote]

Unfortunately some of the stuff he has to play is just straight finger style & doesn't require strings to be muted for everything

He's even got one of those basses (I can't remember which make) that has an adjustable muting option but apparently it really screws with intonation when it's used.

[molan]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1339760745' post='1693847']
Yes but are the strings the same age in both cases?

String age affects a lot of characteristics wrt flexibility and that may well change the perceived timbre too.

Just a thought!
[/quote]

My strings were older than the ones he usually uses but he can get close to the tone he's after with new strings on his new(ish) Fender V.

It's interesting that the Fender is getting close to his ideal. I wondered if they are just relatively 'cheap' pickups that are adding thump rather than clarity & the higher end basses are all striving for that modern hi-fi kinda sound!

[molan]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1339764037' post='1693935']
Min 45 or maybe a 50. or don't play those notes on the G string if they have to have that weight about them.
[/quote]

I actually suggested 55's, lol.

He knows he could do this but because he can get what he wants on his 4 strung with 43's he cant see why he can't get it from a 5

[gjones]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1339764201' post='1693940']
Unfortunately some of the stuff he has to play is just straight finger style & doesn't require strings to be muted for everything

He's even got one of those basses (I can't remember which make) that has an adjustable muting option but apparently it really screws with intonation when it's used.
[/quote]

Two basses?

[molan]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1339764611' post='1693957']
Two basses?
[/quote]

Funnily enough he already has about 50

Just on a quest for a single 'go to' bass for each gig with his current line-up

[chris_b]

Barrie, I'd suggest either a Nordstrand P5 or PJ5 or the Fender you mentioned with Nordy pickups.

[chris_b]

A Lull PJ5 could work, but then I've no idea if that would satisfy the MD.

[molan]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1339771543' post='1694117']
A Lull PJ5 could work, but then I've no idea if that would satisfy the MD.
[/quote]

Thanks Chris - he's tried Lulls but they didn't really work for him. A bit too 'polite' & lacking in character

[chris_b]

Has he tried Laklands?

[chris_b]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1339772585' post='1694147']
....he's tried Lulls but they didn't really work for him. A bit too 'polite' & lacking in character....
[/quote]

He needs to try my special "agricultural" finger style technique!

[molan]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1339773154' post='1694164']
Has he tried Laklands?
[/quote]

Had a go on my US Lakland Glaub 4 - sounded good but hasn't been able to try a 5 yet

[LawrenceH]

Molan might it help in diagnosis to isolate the frequency range he's talking about that's lacking? This would be easily do-able with a para or semi-para EQ either swept as a boost on bass that lacks it or as a cut on the bass that has it to find the centre freq.
It might even solve the problem depending on the effect it had on tone from the other strings/positions, but at least you'd know which frequencies were lacking. I'd guess somewhere between 100 and 300Hz?

[molan]

Thanks for that Lawrence. Sounds a really interesting approach

[Delberthot]

The actual answer is Rotosound 45 Jazz Flatwounds. In fact the only string I can get a great, full sound as far up as fret 11on the G when playing Hey Bulldog.

Play them near the neck and they can be quite floppy but next to the bridge they're the epitome of short sharp punchy bass tones/

Still going strong after 19 months. Currently working out at a pound odds per month