JTUK Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 The thing is..if you have to ask what you should charge then you don't seem to know your own worth. We set a figure, might move a tad on it, but mostly we expect them to take it or leave it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 You could go on to a few agent sites like the the Alive network and go through the process of booking a duo and see how much the going rate is. i would say £300+ is a good price, especially if you are also supplying the lights for the party and maybe ipod music in between sets. Maybe a bit less if you are just going to do the two sets and they have a DJ etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted April 18, 2012 Author Share Posted April 18, 2012 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1334735928' post='1620308'] The thing is..if you have to ask what you should charge then you don't seem to know your own worth..... [/quote] If you look at my original post, you'll see that we haven't done parties before - so, can we not be excused for not knowing what the going rate is? This thread ..... and this other similar one [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/173663-whats-the-going-rate-for-a-5-piece-covers-band/page__fromsearch__1"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/173663-whats-the-going-rate-for-a-5-piece-covers-band/page__fromsearch__1[/url] have been very helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRev Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 My acoustic trio does private bookings for £100 per muso. That includes a small PA. If the venue needs a bigger PA or the customer wants lights or there's a significant amount of travel, then those costs go on top of the £300. In relation to the article posted by Jake, my 4 piece scrumpy'n'western band have been getting a lot more (and better) gig offers over the past 6 months - enough to allow us to put our price up significantly. The interesting thing was, we had more grumbling over our fee going from £250 to £350 last year than we have over our fee going from £350 to £600 this year. It seems that there's some sort of value barrier at the £200/£300 mark. Once you're over that barrier, people seem to treat a band as they would any other professional service - which is exactly as it should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 (edited) [quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1334737726' post='1620344'] If you look at my original post, you'll see that we haven't done parties before - so, can we not be excused for not knowing what the going rate is? This thread ..... and this other similar one [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/173663-whats-the-going-rate-for-a-5-piece-covers-band/page__fromsearch__1"]http://basschat.co.u...__fromsearch__1[/url] have been very helpful. [/quote] The questions you ask seems to indicate you haven't done much of anything in this regard..maybe..?? Not that that in itself is such a bad thing, but it might not be too useful if you try and achieve others fees without knowing how they justify those fees...and that is mostly knowing the standard that they play and pitch at.. Plenty of bands round here who have all the admin down and hit you with contracts ect etc and all very correct, but then don't actually play that well... In pubs and clubs it is about numbers through the doors that tend to drink and subsidise the bar.. Parties ..and you might be part of the venue/food/extras cost..and you'll maybe find the band/music will be the smallest single apart. Some weddings for example..might run into £10-15k and then they go and spend £500 on a band and baulk at anything much higher....which is VERY risky, IMO. Edited April 18, 2012 by JTUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironside1966 Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Let me play the devil's advocate. I have been told more than once by venue managers/owners that bands/ acts that will bring a audience with them is worth a lot more than a band that doesn't, they want bands\acts that can entertain their audience and keep them in the venue. A band that drives customers a way is less then worthless. There are bands and, there are bands and also there are musicians and musicians. Just because you play in a band doesn't necessary mean that you deserve £10 plus an hour. If you invite your mate down with a camera to take some shots of the band would you expect to pay him a pro rate. Some bands put a lot of time and effort into what they do, they choose songs that they know will please their audience, they invest time and money in publicity, they make sure they are well rehearsed and behave in a good professional manner. Other bands just turn up and play, often they play far too loud for the venues and are more interested in showing off on their instrument then connecting with a audience or with the song. Some bands are more likely to choose their material because of the bass line or guitar solo without little thought whether the singer can sing them or not. At the end of the day, it is not about been a full time pro or a semi pro or even someone who gigs once or twice a year. I would just like to dispel the myth that just throwing a couple of cover songs together doesn't mean you have any commercial value, for that you need to put the work in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 This... [IMG]http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd471/paul_510/529331_10150744231939835_507274834_9544984_1141252084_n.jpg[/IMG] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 [quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1334761305' post='1620813'] At the end of the day, it is not about been a full time pro or a semi pro or even someone who gigs once or twice a year. I would just like to dispel the myth that just throwing a couple of cover songs together doesn't mean you have any commercial value, for that you need to put the work in. [/quote] I quite agree. I get the impression that some musicians have their head firmly up their ass when it comes to how much they think they should be paid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted April 18, 2012 Author Share Posted April 18, 2012 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1334753413' post='1620675'] The questions you ask seems to indicate you haven't done much of anything in this regard..maybe..?? Not that that in itself is such a bad thing, but it might not be too useful if you try and achieve others fees without knowing how they justify those fees...and that is mostly knowing the standard that they play and pitch at.. Plenty of bands round here who have all the admin down and hit you with contracts ect etc and all very correct, but then don't actually play that well... In pubs and clubs it is about numbers through the doors that tend to drink and subsidise the bar.. Parties ..and you might be part of the venue/food/extras cost..and you'll maybe find the band/music will be the smallest single apart. Some weddings for example..might run into £10-15k and then they go and spend £500 on a band and baulk at anything much higher....which is VERY risky, IMO. [/quote] Lots of great responses to my OP - but not this one. This is a not a great post in a number of ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 (edited) Its simple... you charge what you think you are worth..and then you have to be able to justify that cost. If you ask for £1000 and you are not very good, then you deserve all the trouble you may recieve...as that will get round quicker than anything and probably cost you more in the end. Some areas and client basses can and will pay more, but even then the question of value for money will be a factor. It is not enough to turn up with matching outfits and have nice tidy stage craft with matching plus sockets to the decor...you may have to fulfil this criteria but that alone will not get you booked if you can't cut it elsewhere. It is ok packing a pub out with your mates, but that isn't any good to the next venue where those mates can't or don't get to... All these are things that we might have to factor in when hustling for work.. and means you need to know your market or where you might stand in that venues line-up. You don't want any awkward dates any more than the booker does. And asking for going rates doesn't really get you anywhere....your outfit may be far above a certain standard to apply...or far below it. The pointers in cash terms on this thread are valid as regards what those guys get... that is all. Edited April 18, 2012 by JTUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 (edited) [quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1334573985' post='1617731'] Thanks!!, it makes a refreshing change to hear that attitude, musicians are either seriously undervalued or paid vast sums in our little corner of the worlds music market, I've been lucky to have a regular gig and a decent amount of freelance work, for most of my working life. If you're lucky enough to have a good balance between a day job and gigging then charge professional rates I say and get the value from your skills and a serious bonus to your annual, as I said earlier, other industries are not shy about charging, and life in the UK is expensive. [/quote] Whilst I appreciate your sentiments, I think that is important take into account what the market is (both for your act and more importantly the venue / promoter or whatever) and to have some sort of a business plan in mind for what you want to do! If you are mainly playing pubs or similar places you should bear in mind that there is a recession on in all but name, not to mention the smoking ban, etc and charge accordingly. A few years ago I was in a covers band that did pretty well, but we were prepared to lower our prices when things got tough for landlords. Remember that you always want the landlord / promoter to make money otherwise they won't bother putting live music on in the future. If they do well when you play they might not panic too much when they next lose £50 on a decent band that haven't played the venue before, just the same as you hope that someone will take a punt and put your band on in a town that you haven't played before! By the same token, you do not want to play for less than the market rate as, if nothing else, the venue will inevitably undervalue you and not bother to do any promotion for the gig if they have nothing much at stake! Edited April 18, 2012 by peteb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 [quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1334763538' post='1620859'] I quite agree. I get the impression that some musicians have their head firmly up their ass when it comes to how much they think they should be paid. [/quote] By that do you mean that to base ones earnings value on a realistic desire to have a home and feed a family in unreasonable, or should we all just get proper jobs?? Should musicians not be able to earn what amounts to an average salary? Where does your feeling for the above sentiment come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 [quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1334784314' post='1621366'] By that do you mean that to base ones earnings value on a realistic desire to have a home and feed a family in unreasonable, or should we all just get proper jobs?? Should musicians not be able to earn what amounts to an average salary? Where does your feeling for the above sentiment come from? [/quote] No idea what your on about. I don't recal saying any of that. I've seen musicians who put bugger all effort in to it yet moan like hell that they should be getting much more money, those are the people I'm talking about. As for a proper job, being a full time musician is a proper job as far as I'm concerned, although not one I would chose to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 [quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1334785520' post='1621403'] No idea what your on about. I don't recal saying any of that. I've seen musicians who put bugger all effort in to it yet moan like hell that they should be getting much more money, those are the people I'm talking about. As for a proper job, being a full time musician is a proper job as far as I'm concerned, although not one I would chose to do. [/quote] I was asking questions as to why you felt 'some musicians had head up arses...' so didn't mean to ascribe any of the sentiments to you, they were questions. I wondered what led you to make such a condemning statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 (edited) No problem, now you know what I meant and wasn't aiming it at anyone here, but I do know people like that and it winds me up. Edited April 18, 2012 by dave_bass5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 [quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1334784314' post='1621366'] By that do you mean that to base ones earnings value on a realistic desire to have a home and feed a family in unreasonable, or should we all just get proper jobs?? Should musicians not be able to earn what amounts to an average salary? Where does your feeling for the above sentiment come from? [/quote] Good evening, Jake... Sorry if this comes across as 'harsh'; please don't take personal umbrage from my opinions... It seems to me to be a fallacy to believe one could (or should...) '...base ones earnings value on a realistic desire to have a home and feed a family...' Those are one's needs, not one's value. An absurd illustration could make the point: I may have spent a great deal of time and money in becoming proficient at twirling lollipop sticks with my ears alone (yes, I know, but it's just for illustration, please bear with me...). I may have (or wish to found...) a family, I have domestic outcome just like everyone else. If I ask the rate needed for my upkeep to put on my 'show', this does in no way mean that anyone else attributes value to it. If my needs are reduced (supposing I only have 1 child to feed, rather than 8...), the 'value' perceived by others is unchanged. In short, I don't 'buy' the need to recognise the equivalence of a 'normal job', and say this as an ex-professional drummer of many years experience. Whether I'm good or not, whether I spend my time practicing or not, whether I have family to feed or not, etc. are not factors for justifying the rates I can obtain. What anyone is prepared to pay me is what I will get, not necessarily what I need (or want, of course. Not to be confused...!). Is this a morally healthy situation..? That's a completely different debate, I think. Musicians (nor lollipop-stick twirlers...) do not have a divine right to have their needs met. Sad, perhaps, but true, imho. There are also very many 'real' jobs that do not meet the needs of the employee, either. Nothing new here, then... Hope this helps; no malice intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1334794632' post='1621549'] Good evening, Jake... Sorry if this comes across as 'harsh'; please don't take personal umbrage from my opinions... It seems to me to be a fallacy to believe one could (or should...) '...base ones earnings value on a realistic desire to have a home and feed a family...' Those are one's needs, not one's value. An absurd illustration could make the point: I may have spent a great deal of time and money in becoming proficient at twirling lollipop sticks with my ears alone (yes, I know, but it's just for illustration, please bear with me...). I may have (or wish to found...) a family, I have domestic outcome just like everyone else. If I ask the rate needed for my upkeep to put on my 'show', this does in no way mean that anyone else attributes value to it. If my needs are reduced (supposing I only have 1 child to feed, rather than 8...), the 'value' perceived by others is unchanged. In short, I don't 'buy' the need to recognise the equivalence of a 'normal job', and say this as an ex-professional drummer of many years experience. Whether I'm good or not, whether I spend my time practicing or not, whether I have family to feed or not, etc. are not factors for justifying the rates I can obtain. What anyone is prepared to pay me is what I will get, not necessarily what I need (or want, of course. Not to be confused...!). Is this a morally healthy situation..? That's a completely different debate, I think. Musicians (nor lollipop-stick twirlers...) do not have a divine right to have their needs met. Sad, perhaps, but true, imho. There are also very many 'real' jobs that do not meet the needs of the employee, either. Nothing new here, then... Hope this helps; no malice intended. [/quote] I'm happy to hear others views and I'm tough enough to take ones that differ from mine... (and enjoy hearing them tbh) I'm really talking about an internal debate, and believe that we should strive to achieve realistic goals, I just have a suspicion that many in the UK market undervalue themselves because of some legacies of our societal views of music as a profession. So I'm not suggesting being naive and pricing oneself on unrealistic principles, I am however encouraging people to have the internal debate and use some of the measures I have described to reach some conclusions. I speak of the UK market because I've been lucky enough to have worked (in music) in over 50 countries and have discovered a very wide ranging attitude towards musicians at various levels. My overriding impression is that comparatively speaking in this country music as a profession is taken less seriously than many countries I have played in. I happen to believe that some musicians themselves play a part in perpetuating that attitude, and pricing is one way in which they do it. Edited April 19, 2012 by jakenewmanbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 To be honest i'd rather play a wedding for £400 than sit at home not earning because the client wouldn't pay £850. Not that i would be in a position to as the band don't all think like that and we would never offer ourselves or drop our price that low but that £100 (each) is enough to feed me for the week so as long as im not out of pocket i cant see any reason to turn it down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 (edited) Many businesses are having to cut costs. Why would musicians be any different? It's all very well holding high moral values and never getting any work, but who does that benefit in the short to medium term? Decent quality music gear is, in real terms, now as cheap as it has ever been. As this forms the basis of our "outgoings" maybe bands should actually be reducing the price they charge? This is a very complex debate that too many people seek to simplify. For each musician, each band and each venue it is different. Whether you agree with that or not, it is true. Perpetuating the divide between "amateur" and "professional" musicians in pointless. By definition, anyone who has been paid for the services they offer is no longer an amateur. In response to the OP - charge what you like and think is appropriate. It's no business of anyone else's except the people you play for. Edited April 19, 2012 by Conan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinBass Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Going rate is a tough one. If I am playing a pub, I would expect £30-50 (all prices as an individual, not a band) and that it would be no-stress and material that I (hopefully) like to play anyway. I don't do those gigs anymore, though. As a family man giving up a Saturday night for £30 is not OK. If I am playing a social club, it's more £60-80 (max). But those are horrible. If it's a wedding/corporate event - £150 Minimum up to £250. If it's a community musical, sometimes it's like £200 for a 4 night run and a rehearsal - I love doing these, though - proper reading gigs. I did one dep for a major national musical tour. All considered, it's lots of travel and pressure for less than average money. Glad I did it just for the experience, though. Anyway - basically its all down to what you can afford/demand and where you are in your life. At one point, I loved doing those £30 gigs. Now I won't do it because I don't have to. Teaching pays the bills for me though! I feel blessed. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPS Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Fascinating debate. I have no idea what the going rate should be and what constitutes a fair rate, however, at a family wedding last year I witnessed a "premier function band" (all professional musicians, gradutaes from music colleges etc) stumble unconvincingly through the bride and groom's first dance, take ludicrously extended breaks between sets, fail to pack the dance floor for 90 per cent of the evening, not interact with the crowd, or each other, and play their chosen set functionally well at best. The price for this was £1,800 pounds for two hours music. Nice work if you get it. On the otherhand there are people round here (and in every town I'd imagine) who claim to make their living from music when in reality they play local pub gigs for peanuts (their rate is probably unchanged in 20 years, as is their setlist) as a means for topping up their dole cheques. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbassist Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Bear in mind the £1800 fee doesn't mean that the musos are being well paid. What you discribe sounds like a band of deps almost certainly on less than 150 whilst the leader &/or agent take the bulk. ...of course they could be a rubbish band, but at that price point the majority are ran by one person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPS Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 [quote name='geoffbassist' timestamp='1334848314' post='1622315'] Bear in mind the £1800 fee doesn't mean that the musos are being well paid. What you discribe sounds like a band of deps almost certainly on less than 150 whilst the leader &/or agent take the bulk. ...of course they could be a rubbish band, but at that price point the majority are ran by one person. [/quote] Good point, haven't thought of that, although from the look of their website they were a permanent outfit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 That is just poor, poor, poor... !!!!!!!!! The whole point of a pick-up band is that you shouldn't know it is a pick-up band even if you are meeting guys first off on the gig. If they are regulars then that is even more scandulous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 That's what I mean by pubs being loss leaders. If you're running a band the musicians expect to be paid at a certain level. My friend plays for a Big Band. They get paid the same regardless of gig. They also get travelling expenses if they submit receipts. However the band charges different amounts for each gig. The band leader keeps money back from the good payers to pay the musicians on the bad payers. I tried to implement this with one band because, as I saw it, we needed to do pub gigs to advertise the band but some members of the band wouldn't go out for less than a certain amount and picked and chose which gigs they were 'available' for. It didn't work because they were greedy and wanted their money there and then and wouldn't wait or do the pub gigs ("We're too good to do pubs"), and then complained we weren't getting any good gigs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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