Under what circumstances..

[JTUK]

Would you allow a venue in a given town to dictate whether you could/should play elsewhere in that town as you might be perceived as taking away trade from them... ??

This is becoming more prevalent around here and it has been a tactic from one or two pubs who think they are the better places to play...might even advertise themselves
as so and so's premier music venue/pub/club etc ..so they will offfer dates as long as you only play there in any given year.

We have often been asked this, particuarly if we are new to that venue ... and our thinking is that we should avoid that place and play at their comptetition ha ha.. but there are only so many places that you would consider playing in any one town, tbh...
We do generally pick the better one for us..and stick to it... so it wouldn't kill us and we could end up doing it anyway... but it needs to be our choice rather than the venues stipulation.

Is this practice unusual..???

[wateroftyne]

On the theatre / art centre / ticket venue circuit it's common.

On the pub scene, less so... there's a couple of 'music' pubs up here that politely ask you not to play at the pub over the road for a while either side of playing there. Depending on the circumstances, I think it's a reasonable request.

[JTUK]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1324541543' post='1475280']
On the theatre / art centre / ticket venue circuit it's common.

On the pub scene, less so... there's a couple of 'music' pubs up here that politely ask you not to play at the pub over the road for a while either side of playing there. Depending on the circumstances, I think it's a reasonable request.
[/quote]

Have to say..not entirley against it myself if that venue does indeed offer something over and above....but we'd come to that conclusion anyway and wouldn't need to be told much after the fact.

I can't go into specifics but it was pubs telling a venue that they have 'groomed certain' bands locally and now ticketed gigs were taking away trade from these pubs.
We suspect one of the complainants is one who gives us 4-5 gigs a year and we have to hassle like hell to get a decent rate.
For that reason alone, we were thinking it couldn't work for us much longer..
As far as I know...in fact, I am pretty certain..the respective music nights are not even on the same nights of the week..

I wonder how ungrateful we might seem to be... having been groomed this last year even though most of us have been around for 25 years plus or so..!! ha ha !!!

Edited December 22, 2011 by JTUK

[skidder652003]

happens round here a bit as well (west country). If they offer us 4 gigs a year then we won't, out of courtesy, play in nearby pubs in that town, but if its just the one gig then i think its ok to look for as many gigs in as many pubs in the area!

[Jayben]

Hell no! I understand that the venues want to stay in competition with each other and all that, but at the end of the day the more gigs you do the better imo - if there's a pub in your town you haven't played yet (out of courtesy or whatever else) there could be god knows how many fans just waiting to be alerted to your existence.

Not only that, I fail to understand why a band might be detracting trade from a particular pub by playing somewhere else - maybe that pub should try and get one up with promotion or something?

Plus, with lots of people moaning about the lack of a music scene these days (especially in my area), to limit yourself to one pub in a given town only helps to ensure the continuation of a crappy music scene, whereas if you rotate all the venues round, you'll give other bands a chance and help to create the sense of a living, moving local scene.

Is it a common practice? The only time either of my bands ever get asked that is when we play Academy Unsigned in Manc. So luckily it's not common in this part of the country AFAIK.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Jayben

[wateroftyne]

I think in pub-covers-land, think a window of couple of weeks either-side of the date is reasonable. Anything more than that is stretching it a bit.

[thisnameistaken]

We've had this request from a few promoters, I don't think it's unreasonable really - they don't want 'your' audience to have seen you the weekend before in the pub down the street because they won't turn up again the weekend they've booked you.

Not playing any other venues for a year though? That's mental. What are they offering you in return?

Edited December 22, 2011 by thisnameistaken

[guildbass]

Gosh... Sounds a bit naughty! It's not like they are offering a residency... i would have thought that if your band was big enough to make a financial difference then they ought to be offering some kind of incentive... Like a number of pre-booked dates...

But it does all depend on how the market is... If the pub guys who book the music get pissed off with your attitude...You and your guitar stay at home...A difficult balance especially as we are often looking for venues and the venues know that, yet we are theoretically adding value to their business...Who values who more...

It must depend on the popularity of the band....

[chris_b]

[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]There are gigs that ask us not to play for the local completion, and we've been asked not to play in a "free" gig when we're also playing at a nearby gig which charges on the door.[/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial] [/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]
[size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]I don't see a problem with this. The promoters need to get as many people in as they can and not splitting your audience is probably a good plan. We would always choose the better gig so don't feel unreasonably dictated to.[/font][/color][/size][color=#222222][font=Arial][size=1][/size][/font][/color]

[icastle]

There used to be a law that prevented this from happening (Restrictive Practices Act) but my understanding is that it was repealed a few years ago as it was believed that European Law was a sufficient safeguard.
It is - provided you are a multi million pound business, but it's no use at all at a local level, as demonstrated here.

I haven't come across that sort of situation here in the East Midlands yet but my gut reaction is that any venue owner trying to enforce such an 'agreement' would have trouble doing so and, unless they are offering a really good deal, are not a business I would want to deal with.

[neepheid]

One of the venues in Aberdeen does request that you don't play in Aberdeen for a week either side of your appearance. Fair enough, fits in with my work ethic

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1324543849' post='1475299']
I think in pub-covers-land, think a window of couple of weeks either-side of the date is reasonable. Anything more than that is stretching it a bit.
[/quote]

We were asked last year (in our area Michael) to agree to not play 3 mths either side of any date given in a certain venue... that meant 6 mths not playing in that town (which probably contains at least 4 venues that I play regularly). I politely declined as I feel that I am in best position to decide when and where my band played, rather some unilateral ban imposed by the venue. I'm still playing regularly in the town and I've got the other venues texting/calling me on a regular basis wanting to book us more often and said venue wishing to impose the policy, no longer puts bands on!

I can see 'why' some venues want to do it but a well managed/organised band can make those decisions without a venue trying to enforce them.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1324546979' post='1475345']
my gut reaction is that any venue owner trying to enforce such an 'agreement' would have trouble doing so and, unless they are offering a really good deal, are not a business I would want to deal with.
[/quote]
Ticketed venues aside, the pubs up here that have asked us to stay outside the area for a couple of weeks either side are friendly local venues, who we know well. If they ask us nicely, we're happy to go along with it. We're all friends...

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1324547373' post='1475355']
We were asked last year (in our area Michael) to agree to not play 3 mths either side of any date given in a certain venue... that meant 6 mths not playing in that town (which probably contains at least 4 venues that I play regularly).
[/quote]
That's a ridiculous request...!

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1324547461' post='1475360']
That's a ridiculous request...!
[/quote]

It was when you consider that to do just one gig a year meant not playing the town for 6 mths... with two gigs a ear at that venue you effectively couldn't play anywhere else in that town AT ALL!

[icastle]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1324547432' post='1475359']
Ticketed venues aside, the pubs up here that have asked us to stay outside the area for a couple of weeks either side are friendly local venues, who we know well. If they ask us nicely, we're happy to go along with it. We're all friends...
[/quote]

Yep.
A week or two either side is no big deal as you can use that to entice 'pub B' into a deal off the back end of that.
I draw the line when it becomes months of 'exclusivity' with no pay coming in though.

[Adrenochrome]

None!

I should point out that we do make an effort to evenly space our gigs at venues in near vicinity as we play a LOT of gigs in the Bradford area, however this is on our terms.

[chris_b]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1324546979' post='1475345']
....any venue owner trying to enforce such an 'agreement' would have trouble doing so....
[/quote]
[size=4]No they don't. [/size]

[size=4]They just don't book you. [/size]

[Adrenochrome]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1324548064' post='1475373']
[size=4]No they don't. [/size]

[size=4]They just don't book you. [/size]
[/quote]

...or cancel gigs you might already have. Delirium and a handful of other bands had their gigs at the Thornhill Arms in Stanningley cancelled for a year for playing another venue in the next town about 2 miles away - you couldn't make it up!
It was no big loss to the bands involved who were all very busy but was probably a bigger loss to the Thornhill Arms in missed revenues. We took it as a business decision and I still speak to the landlord now that the pub has inevitably shut.

[Les]

happens a bit in the North West, usually a polite and reasonable request, and I have no problem with it.

Bit of common sense on both sides is good for business. At pub level 6 weeks either side I wouldn't accept though.

Anyone else remember the old yellow VAEC contracts ? Think they had it built in, depending on fee the barring clause got bigger/longer.

[Bilbo]

I will agree not to play at any other venues in the vicinity if they agree not to book any other bands. Or if they pay us a retainer.

Either option works for me.

[chris_b]

[size=4][font=Arial][color="#000000"]Obviously I don’t know what happens in other parts of the country, but none of my bands will usually do more than 3 gigs at a venue in a year. In some we only play twice. [/color][/font][/size][font=Arial][size=2] [/size][/font]
[size=4][font=Arial] [/font][/size][font=Arial][size=2][/size][/font]
[size=4][font=Arial][color="#000000"]These exclusion clauses are common in the theatrical world. You can’t even put on a school /am dram play or musical if there is an official version touring or in the [/color][/font][/size][font=Arial][size=2][color="#000000"][size=4]West End[/size][size=4].[/size][/color][/size][/font]

[JTUK]

[quote name='Jayben' timestamp='1324543661' post='1475295']
Hell no! I understand that the venues want to stay in competition with each other and all that, but at the end of the day the more gigs you do the better imo - if there's a pub in your town you haven't played yet (out of courtesy or whatever else) there could be god knows how many fans just waiting to be alerted to your existence.

Not only that, I fail to understand why a band might be detracting trade from a particular pub by playing somewhere else - maybe that pub should try and get one up with promotion or something?

Plus, with lots of people moaning about the lack of a music scene these days (especially in my area), to limit yourself to one pub in a given town only helps to ensure the continuation of a crappy music scene, whereas if you rotate all the venues round, you'll give other bands a chance and help to create the sense of a living, moving local scene.

Is it a common practice? The only time either of my bands ever get asked that is when we play Academy Unsigned in Manc. So luckily it's not common in this part of the country AFAIK.
[/quote]

In my home town, I counted 7 venues with music one sat night...and in general I think the scene in the county is vibrant... I would probanly say there are too many bands and too many gigs, all things considered.
We actually played a ticketed venue in the town and did very well, confirmed by the venue as their best so far in the 6 months or so they have been running bar opening night..-which we also happened to do albeit with another popular band who don't many local dates...
I think we gave them space ....but still they weren't happy.
It will be an ongoing probrlem and our choice is to pull out of the pubs or pubs that feel this way...
We can expect maybe 2-3 ticketed gigs at the venue at function rates as opposed to 4-5 pub rates gigs. from an all-orund gig experience, this is a no brainer...even without taking the money into things.

I have to say..I am not that keen on ticketed gigs where the onus is on the band to draw and make the money... it can be quite a pressure...but it seems like we are being pushed into binning pub gigs in that town...and we only do the one pub atm..and plus one about 6 miles outside. That is as close as we get...

I'm am bemused as of their argument tbh..!!

As I say..it is not as through the music nights clash...!!

[JTUK]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1324552038' post='1475429']
I will agree not to play at any other venues in the vicinity if they agree not to book any other bands. Or if they pay us a retainer.

Either option works for me.
[/quote]

ha ha .... we have a lot of trouble getting minimum free from this pub as it is...

[JTUK]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1324545069' post='1475319']
We've had this request from a few promoters, I don't think it's unreasonable really - they don't want 'your' audience to have seen you the weekend before in the pub down the street because they won't turn up again the weekend they've booked you.

Not playing any other venues for a year though? That's mental. What are they offering you in return?
[/quote]

It isn't the venue that is complaining...it is the pubs/pubs.... and it is quite a close run town so this is being entertained by the venue even though they have invested in a LOT of stuff to make the venue work. It should be a showcase for the local bands. We played the only two pubs that we do in the parish.....one in town about 3-4 weeks prior, and the village pub 1 weeks before.
We pulled 300 in the venue after that..and we would say the pubs did fine on our night there as well...ie, not notiecable down on numbers.

I would have thought..and I would feel the same, that the venue took the bigger risk paying us a function type fee and putting up a ticket price against the pubs. People can see us for nothing in the pubs.
and £8-10 a ticket for a two band line-up is quite an outlay for the venue..!!

It all comes down to us probably having to blow out the pub/pubs...which is a real shame. And I kind of bulk at them declaring that they have 'groomed' us...!!!! I don't recall them at any rehearsals or band meets ..

Edited December 22, 2011 by JTUK