Silvia Bluejay Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 (edited) Last year I bought a set of steel flatwound strings, as an experiment, to replace the normal nickel roundwounds on my 4-string Rockbass Corvette. I have decided that I really like the less noisy flatwounds, and would like to put a set on my 5-string Fortress as well. I hope you guys' collective wisdom will help me see if that's a. possible and b. advisable. In a nutshell: 1. Does anyone know if nickel flatwounds exist, especially in sets of 5? Steel strings are fine on the 4, but I don't fancy tackling a bloody great B string made of steel, as it'd probably be too stiff for my tiny little fingers to press properly... 2. In case the answer to the above is yes, do you guys think it would make sense to try them? Or will a flatwound 5-stringer be barely audible, or sound awful, at lower frequencies - what with both flatwounds and 5-string basses being less bright in sound? Thank you in advance for any advice. PS I blame my taking up the double bass for learning to love the feel of flatwound strings Edited November 30, 2011 by bluejay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbyrne Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I've got D'Addario Chromes on my BB415 & the B is as good as the other 4 strings (which, to these ears, is very good indeed!). G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I've got Ernie Ball flats on my 5 and the B is lovely, deep and rich, definitely audible . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machines Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Thomastik flatwounds seem to be quite low tension - give them a go ? Not cheap, mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvia Bluejay Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 Wow, three replies within less than an hour! I'm infinitely grateful! Could you guys possibly tell me the product code/ID for the sets of strings you mention? I only seem to find sets of 4 whenever I search for flatwounds of any type. Thank you! Love this forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burg Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I used flatwounds on my 5 string fretless and the B sounded lovely. If anything, the lack of brightness really brought out the low end. Not sure if anyone does nickel wound flatwounds though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coilte Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 [quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1322659445' post='1454034'] Wow, three replies within less than an hour! I'm infinitely grateful! Could you guys possibly tell me the product code/ID for the sets of strings you mention? I only seem to find sets of 4 whenever I search for flatwounds of any type. Thank you! Love this forum [/quote] I would add a "+1" for the Thomastiks mentioned by "Machines". They are one of the lowest tension flats out there. Also, as Machines says, they are not cheap... [b]initially[/b], but like all flats, they last so long ( up to ten years in some cases), so they work out cheap in the long term. This is where I get mine, and this site has them at the cheapest I could find. [url="http://www.lordofthestrings.com/lots/RAPRD/Thomastik-JF345-Jazz-Flat/11001622.html"]http://www.lordofthestrings.com/lots/RAPRD/Thomastik-JF345-Jazz-Flat/11001622.html[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvia Bluejay Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 Thank you Burg. I should probably have said 'non-steel' rather than nickel flatwounds - I'm simply looking for something less stiff. Will do a search for the names mentioned above asap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvia Bluejay Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 Excellent, Coilte (and Machines), will check them out. Thank you so very much. I'm not necessarily after cheap, for the reasons you mention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coilte Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 [quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1322660642' post='1454061'] Excellent, Coilte (and Machines), will check them out. Thank you so very much. I'm not necessarily after cheap, for the reasons you mention. [/quote] You are welcome Bluejay. I doubt if you will find a lower tension flat than the Thomastiks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 [quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1322660474' post='1454057']I should probably have said 'non-steel' rather than nickel flatwounds - I'm simply looking for something less stiff. Will do a search for the names mentioned above asap.[/quote] Stiffness (compliance) isn't primarily a feature of the windings but of the core. All other factors being equal (gauge and finish), a string wound on a hex core will feel "stiffer" than a string wound on a round core. The opportunity to compare a DR Lo Rider with a DR Hi Beam, say, would allow you to feel the difference core shape makes to the compliance of a string. The majority of flat wound strings will feature a chromed steel as the outer wrap. The flattened outer winding means fewer voids, and the chromed finish is less reactive magnetically than polished steel. Both these design points contribute to the "deadness" of a flat wound string. Mostly, a round wound string sounds brighter as a result of the voids moving air when struck. If you prefer a nickel wound string, but like the feel of the surface of a flat wound string, have you considered using a half wound (aka ground wound) string? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvia Bluejay Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 (edited) Thanks Noel! I knew the facts you mention in your explanation, but in a less detailed way, so it's good of you to go through them for me. One of the reasons why I prefer flats is that I have to shift my fretting hand a lot when playing, unlike those who have larger hands, and so I sometimes make more 'noise' than I would like to. I don't mind the 'deadness' at all - it's the looow end we're dealing with, after all My - admittedly limited - experience with strings is that, as you say, flats tend to be made at least partly of steel; those I have on my Corvette are entirely made of steel, hence their stiffness. As I said, I'm not particularly looking for nickel, so I probably better concentrate on what the core is made of, and what shape it is, in the sets I may buy. I know about half-wound strings but I've found it very hard to ever come across a set, online, in shops or at music fairs - can't think it would be any easier to find a set for a 5-stringer. I think I'll get one of the flat sets helpfully mentioned in the replies above, but not immediately, and in the meantime I'll keep my eyes open for all the options you guys mention. Thanks a million, everybody! Edited November 30, 2011 by bluejay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 TI Jazz Flats are low tension nickel flats and have a brighter more middy sound than is common with many flats. They are sensitive to the way they are played and can produce a range of sounds. They age very well. I've never used a five string set but I see no reason to think it's any different to a four string set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 [quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1322666261' post='1454175']My - admittedly limited - experience with strings is that ... flats tend to be made at least partly of steel; those I have on my Corvette are entirely made of steel, hence their stiffness.[/quote] Apologies if you already know this (and adding some detail for general consumption), but it's very unusual to find an electric bass string that isn't made of steel. With a string labelled as being stainless steel, the core and all the wraps will be steel, with the surface of the final wrap being highly polished; with a "nickel" string it's just that final wrap that has been coated with nickel (so, nickel coated steel as opposed to pure nickel); and with a "chrome" string just the surface of the final wrap which has been chromatised. The final coating really only affects the attack of the tone; the bloom of the tone will be very similar irrespective of the final coating. Why people believe a flat wound string is fuller (louder/more even) than a round wound string is the slightly increased mass of the flat, compared to the round. People struggle to hear as pronounced a difference between a round/chrome and a ground because of how a ground is manufactured. Leaving aside the issue of scale length, the three factors playing the biggest part in the feel of the string are core design (the most common being round and hex, but there's also semi-oval and prism), compression winding, and witness contact at the bridge. A round core will be the most compliant (least stiff). Historically, wrap to core slippage would have been an issue with round cores, but this isn't an issue with modern winding techniques. Some manufacturers, to counteract slippage, use a round core with a single flattened surface or a semi-oval core. The difference in compliance between these and a fully round core is completely negligible. A prism core will be less compliant (stiffer). The advantage of this design is core to wrap adhesion and increased proportion of void. This results in a string with significant air (a very bright attack). A hex core will be the least complaint (stiffest). While core to wrap adhesion is high with this design, void is at a lower proportion than for prism, as well as the nature of the voids differing. The smaller voids result in less attack than a prism but more even transitions. The difference in compliance between a prism and a hex core is negligible. Compression winding is a way of increasing the mass of a string for a given gauge, by winding the wraps onto the string under pressure. This results in more mass, which results in a string with more presence (overall volume). In theory, retaining a fuller sound, switching to a compression wound string could allow you to drop a gauge while maintaining tone. Witness contact contributes to the responsive feel of a string. Leaving aside the impact on tone, a fully exposed core should feel most responsive, a semi wound core less responsive, and a traditional wound string least responsive. Opinions vary greatly as to how these designs affect tone, but generally people associate a fully exposed core with most brilliance and sustain, so, this again can allow a drop in gauge without sacrificing overall tone. (I’m least convinced about that than other factors.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvia Bluejay Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 Thanks again for the abundance of highly intriguing facts, Noel. I'm going to re-read your post several times and learn it all! Sorry if I seemed to misunderstand the fact that the core is always steel - I thought otherwise because of my experience of removing the old strings, which felt easier to cut and/or unwind from the tuning pegs even after I had stripped the external (round) windings and exposed the core. The flatwounds (both the complete strings and just the cores) were harder both to wind around the tuning pegs and to cut to length. The gauges were the same - maybe the strings I removed were simply absolute crap... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvia Bluejay Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 (edited) PS I think I need to add that I did change the strings following the proper procedure, and the unwinding/exposing the core/dismantling and general fiddling around was simply out of curiosity! Also, it wasn't the first time I did it, but the previous times I had replaced like with like, and noticed no particular difference in stiffness or difficulty to cut or wind around the pegs. Very possibly, all the sets I replaced were pretty sh*te, considering that they came from the factory with each of the basses. Edited November 30, 2011 by bluejay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbyrne Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 (edited) [quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1322659445' post='1454034'] Wow, three replies within less than an hour! I'm infinitely grateful! Could you guys possibly tell me the product code/ID for the sets of strings you mention? I only seem to find sets of 4 whenever I search for flatwounds of any type. Thank you! Love this forum [/quote] The reference for the D'Addario Chromes 5 set is ECB81-5. Best price I've seen is from Thomann.de. [url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DAddario-ECB81-5-5-string-Chromes-Flatwound-Strings-/130513891804?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item1e633bf1dc"]http://www.ebay.co.u...=item1e633bf1dc[/url] G. Edited November 30, 2011 by geoffbyrne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvia Bluejay Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 Excellent, thank you Geoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvia Bluejay Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 [quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1322672969' post='1454307'] TI Jazz Flats are low tension nickel flats and have a brighter more middy sound than is common with many flats. They are sensitive to the way they are played and can produce a range of sounds. [/quote] Thanks for that Dave - sounds good, and I'll keep it in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coilte Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 [quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1322679676' post='1454487'] Thanks for that Dave - sounds good, and I'll keep it in mind. [/quote] TI Jazz Flats are the Thomastiks we discussed earlier. TI stands for Thomastik/Infeld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvia Bluejay Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 I had guessed that correctly then, after checking the strings online. Thanks for clarifying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rk7 Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Hey S. I use Overwater Flatwounds on my, er, Overwater 5! They are excellent. I would guess though, that they are re-packaged items that probably already feature in the advice you have received in earlier posts. R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvia Bluejay Posted December 15, 2011 Author Share Posted December 15, 2011 (edited) Thanks Robin - I'll keep those in mind as well. I've looked up the makes of strings suggested above, bookmarked the best websites selling them, and will eventually choose and order when I'm ready to proceed - that is, not at the moment, as things are a bit hectic and I only manage a few minutes playing bass/double bass every day, let alone a free afternoon to install, test, set up and adjust Hope all's fine with you! Silvia Edited December 15, 2011 by bluejay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 While we're on the topic of five string flats, has anyone tried the Rotosounds on a five string? I'm thinking of going back to flats, and I like strings at the clankier end of flatwounds, so it's those or the Chromes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delberthot Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 I've been using the 4 string set for the past 14 months and absolutely love them but I don't know about the 5 string set. The tone didn't seem to change between fitting them and now but it may have been so gradual that I just didn't notice a change. One thing I have discovered is that the tension difference between strings can be dependant on where you hit the strings with your right hand. eg my rotos feel pretty stiff but I am playing them over the bridge pickup of my Thunderbird which is about an inch away from the bridge. I had TI flats on my 6 string Ibanez SR1016 and they were very good. I am a very hard hitter but didn't find them too low tension Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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