So... The RH450 is actually a 236w head???

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='bobbytodd' post='1354037' date='Aug 27 2011, 08:15 PM']if it sounds right and the person it happy with it whats the fuss[/quote]
Well, if you paid for a 16 ounce steak and were served an 8 ounce steak would you be happy just because it tastes good?
[quote]I can't see this fake claim as being any more unethical as quoted car mpg figures or health claims for diet drinks[/quote]It certainly is no more unethical, but also is no more excusable. I really have to wonder about the personal values of those who not only seem not to to care when they've been defrauded, but even defend the actions of the defrauder.

[bobbytodd]

you beat me to the point of the motor industrys mpg figures.watchdog once did a real world test of a smart car and there was a big discepency in the actual mpg.its all modern marketing product x is awesome ect

[nottswarwick]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1354371' date='Aug 28 2011, 03:09 PM']Well, if you paid for a 16 ounce steak and were served an 8 ounce steak would you be happy just because it tastes good?
It certainly is no more unethical, but also is no more excusable. I really have to wonder about the personal values of those who not only seem not to to care when they've been defrauded, but even defend the actions of the defrauder.[/quote]

Not that I have one of these, but I couldn't agree more. It's inexcusable. And it IS different to the MPG example, since although hard to achieve at least you can try to get close to the published MPG figures, but in the TC case the amp simply is not 450Watts, full stop.

I won't be buying one. It's pretty black white to me.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1354371' date='Aug 28 2011, 03:09 PM']....Well, if you paid for a 16 ounce steak and were served an 8 ounce steak would you be happy just because it tastes good?.... I really have to wonder about the personal values of those who not only seem not to to care when they've been defrauded, but even defend the actions of the defrauder....[/quote]
Yawn!!

[Musicman20]

Id seriously try using your own ears before listening to everything on forums. Following 100% forums movements has led me to mistakes with my gear in the past.

I have no reason to defend TC, I am in no way affiliated or sponsored etc, I paid the shop prices for this gear (although I did get it cheaper than most as I always haggle!).

If you think the RH450 is underpowered, then all the MB LM/F series are underpowered, as is the Shuttle 6.0/9.0. If you need more volume, then Im guessing you are playing much larger stages. I have spent time A/Bing most the modern micros, and the volume pulls ahead of all the 500W MB amps, and the Genz Shuttle 6.0.

We will find out more on Monday when Uffe starts to comment.

I also ignore anything by a rival endorsee, especially when they are competing for TCs current market share.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1354371' date='Aug 28 2011, 03:09 PM']Well, if you paid for a 16 ounce steak and were served an 8 ounce steak would you be happy just because it tastes good?
It certainly is no more unethical, but also is no more excusable. I really have to wonder about the personal values of those who not only seem not to to care when they've been defrauded, but even defend the actions of the defrauder.[/quote]

This is going a little bit over the top. Im sorry, but even if I didnt have an RH750, I would still think the attacks on the amp after the MASSIVE praise for the last 2 years is just plain weird. Most the people dont even own one.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1354385' date='Aug 28 2011, 03:30 PM']I think the RH450 is underpowered, then all the MB LM/F series are underpowered, as is the Shuttle 6.0/9.0. If you need more volume, then Im guessing you are playing much larger stages. I have spent time A/Bing most the modern micros, and the volume pulls ahead of all the 500W MB amps, and the Genz Shuttle 6.0.

We will find out more on Monday when Uffe starts to comment.

I also ignore anything by a rival endorsee, especially when they are competing for TCs current market share.[/quote]

FWIW, I play a range of different stages, but as I've said a few times already, it's not about volume but what happens to the sound at volume, how it handles the peaks.

And yes, JimmyM is an axe-grinding twit.

If anything good comes from this, it's that it'll put specs from all manufacturers under the microscope. TC have just pushed things a little too far.

[chris_b]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1354391' date='Aug 28 2011, 03:37 PM']....And yes, JimmyM is an axe-grinding twit....[/quote]
It is disappointing that so many people have so easily adopted "lynch mob" mentality over this issue.

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1354391' date='Aug 28 2011, 03:37 PM']....If anything good comes from this, it's that it'll put specs from all manufacturers under the microscope. TC have just pushed things a little too far....[/quote]
I agree that correct specs should be published, but as that routinely doesn't happen I fail to see why TC has been attacked in this way. Eden cab specs were always held up as impossible but no one cared because they sounded so good. In my opinion TC are in the same category.

[gjones]

Well I played my TC classic 450 through my TC BC212 for the first time last night and the first thing I noticed was how bloody loud it was! The cab is rated at 250W at 8 ohms and I have no idea what wattage the Classic 450 was putting out at that resistance. All I do know is that we were playing pretty darn loud (we play electric blues and can pretty noisy) and the amp was at 7 on the gain and only 4 on the master. I do have another 8 ohm 15" cab, which would reduce the load to 4 ohms, but can't think of a situation I would ever need it with that kind of volume on tap.
So who cares what wattage an amp is rated at? Most bassists are only interested in clean loudness levels with plenty of headroom and my TC amp is plenty loud enough.

[Paul Clifton]

1) You can get nowhere near car manufacturers mpg figures in real world tests
2) I would rather have a great 8 ounce steak than an average 16 ounce steak, even if I was initially dismayed at being misled over the weight
3) I have never bought an amp based on wattage figures - anyone who does is an idiot. As far as I am concerned, wattage is only hazily related to real world volume.
4) TC are going to catch flack for being caught out on a bench test, but quality will win through over PR at the end of the day. If enough people like the product when they try it, they will buy it.
5) Everybody lies.

[Musky]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1354433' date='Aug 28 2011, 04:08 PM']It is disappointing that so many people have so easily adopted "lynch mob" mentality over this issue.


I agree that correct specs should be published, but as that routinely doesn't happen I fail to see why TC has been attacked in this way. [b]Eden cab specs were always held up as impossible but no one cared because they sounded so good[/b]. In my opinion TC are in the same category.[/quote]
To be fair, it's been widely pointed out that cab specs are very often wildly misleading and sometimes outright lies, so it comes as no surprise to me that Eden are following suit. This is what led Alex to compare his Barefaced cabs by saying things like "similar to a 8x10 fridge", rather than resorting to dishonesty.

As far as I can see though, with a few exceptions like Behringer, amp manufacturesfigures seem to bear at least some relation to reality. I can think of a few amps that people have doubted the published RMS figures, but these seem to have issues with the preamps rather than the power section. And I still don't see that it would justify a manufacturer being so misleading, especially as the TC doesn't seem to be a quiet amp by any stretch.

This whole thing has more to do with peoples' perception of the relationship between Watts and volume, which is skewed (ironically, probably from the marketing efforts of various amp manufacturers over the years).

[Paul Clifton]

[quote name='Musky' post='1354478' date='Aug 28 2011, 04:40 PM']This whole thing has more to do with peoples' perception of the relationship between Watts and volume, which is skewed (ironically, probably from the marketing efforts of various amp manufacturers over the years).[/quote]

^^ What he said. The public expect volume to be expressed in terms of watts, so how do you market an amp that is just as 'loud' as other amps, but a lower wattage rating? TC went the easy, sly route by picking a number that correlated to other amps with the same perceived volume output. Marketed as a TC 250 it may have been more honest, but people would have presumed it not powerful enough for their needs.

[stingrayPete1977]

[Pedant alert] All this comparison of manufactures mpg figures is nonesense, They are always stated as Official GOVT figures so unless all these amps were tested by a third party its nothing like the same as its TC that are lying not Ford or FIAT or whoever. [Pedant alert off]

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Paul Clifton' post='1354483' date='Aug 28 2011, 04:47 PM']^^ What he said. The public expect volume to be expressed in terms of watts, so how do you market an amp that is just as 'loud' as other amps, but a lower wattage rating? TC went the easy, sly route by picking a number that correlated to other amps with the same perceived volume output. Marketed as a TC 250 it may have been more honest, but people would have presumed it not powerful enough for their needs.[/quote]

But I thought quality would prevail? I just read it.

[bobbytodd]

well ive tried the rh heads and followed this thread and when funds permit im still going to buy one as it sounded really good imo.if i need mega volume levels i'll use the pa

[bigjohn]

I don't get it. They've marketed a 236W amp as 450W, but that's ok cos 236W is enough and it "sounds as loud" as some other 450W amps? It's outrageous.

Also seems like most people who are defending TC are those that own one! Strikes me as a bit Emperor's New Clothes.

[Paul Clifton]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1354487' date='Aug 28 2011, 04:50 PM']But I thought quality would prevail? I just read it.[/quote]

Pedant alert indeed! People can only test quality once they know about an amp, which is marketing's job. I spoke of quality winning through despite the initial lie, not prior to it

By the way, the tagline that mpg figures are 'government tests' merely mean the manufacturers have to follow government test standards for doing the mpg tests in order to publish them, not that the government does the tests - the scope for stretching those standards is enormous. I should know - I used to market BMW

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='1354493' date='Aug 28 2011, 04:56 PM']I don't get it. They've marketed a 236W amp as 450W,[/quote]
...with an 800w peak.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Paul Clifton' post='1354497' date='Aug 28 2011, 04:57 PM']Pedant alert indeed! People can only test quality once they know about an amp, which is marketing's job. I spoke of quality winning through despite the initial lie, not prior to it

By the way, the tagline that mpg figures are 'government tests' merely mean the manufacturers have to follow government test standards for doing the mpg tests in order to publish them, not that the government does the tests - the scope for stretching those standards is enormous. I should know - I used to market BMW [/quote]

Well its a rotten trick then, There must be dozens of great items out there that struggle to get known (just like bands), places like Bass Direct can only stock so much unusual gear for us to try which is how it should of been done ethically, Im sure the likes of Mark would of been there to say "hey try this out its awesome ignore the wattage" (or they could of left it at a name rather than a wattage number) and they would of sold like hot cakes just the same.

I know its not actually David Cameron with a stopwatch and a jerry can doing the tests but surely its a start rather than figures being plucked from the sky in this case?

[Paul Clifton]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1354512' date='Aug 28 2011, 05:13 PM']I know its not actually David Cameron with a stopwatch and a jerry can doing the tests[/quote]

I love this image lol

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Paul Clifton' post='1354514' date='Aug 28 2011, 05:15 PM']I love this image lol[/quote]
I bet he would still cock up the test if he did do it all himself, Then blame it on the other idiot whats his name?........

[bigjohn]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1354498' date='Aug 28 2011, 04:58 PM']...with an 800w peak.
[/quote]

Ok.

So they've actually designed a <266W RMS amp, which outputs 236W RMS and they've marketed it as a 450W amp with an 800W peak.

Nice work.

They'd have been more honest calling it an RH800.

Edited August 28, 2011 by bigjohn

[chris_b]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='1354493' date='Aug 28 2011, 04:56 PM']....Also seems like most people who are defending TC are those that own one!....[/quote]
It's because we know that this is a storm in a tea cup instigated as part of an opportunistic marketing exercise by a competitor to TC.

I have no preference for either of my amps, I use both regularly. They are interchangeable to me in terms of output and as far as my bands are concerned the Staccato is louder, fuller and bassier and they would rather I sold the Thunderfunk!

I would have preferred that TC had adopted a different marketing strategy, but I find the whole "issue" amusing. Who here has ever bought an amp based only on its watts rating? You have? Silly boy!

Cab spec sheets, Furman's claims for their power conditioners, the £1500 power cable that Victor Wooten might be endorsing are all quietly sitting right next to TC in the marketing arena. Then why is there no "outrage" over their caims? Fraud is when someone sells you something that isn't fit for purpose. TC hasn't sold anything that doesn't perform exactly as they said, so accusations of fraud are a ridiculous over reaction.

This is all about a US company which is not doing as well as it did trying to "out PR" a very successful competitor.

The other funny part is that so many people are following the pied piper.

Edited August 28, 2011 by chris_b

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1354547' date='Aug 28 2011, 05:41 PM']It's because we know that this is a storm in a tea cup instigated as part of an opportunistic marketing exercise by a competitor to TC.[/quote]
I've got nothing against TC (really, I haven't) but IMO this incident is a step too far. They may not be first, but unfortunately they've been caught with their trousers down.

I'd rather marketing people from all manufacturers were made aware that stretching the truth this far just isn't on.

[Paul Clifton]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1354552' date='Aug 28 2011, 05:45 PM']I'd rather marketing people from all manufacturers were made aware that stretching the truth this far just isn't on.[/quote]

WTF would we do for a job then? lol