So... The RH450 is actually a 236w head???

[Merton]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1352334' date='Aug 26 2011, 01:02 PM'].... anyway, Alex, please design your amp to support 2 ohm loads. Thanks.[/quote]
Haha! About to respond to your PM sir

As for this thread, what a lot of nonsense. Who gives a f*** what the rating is as long as it sounds good to the person using it. And the audience, I guess

[alexclaber]

Chris, it's nothing like that at all. You're talking about perception, I'm talking about absolutes. It's like you saying your car feels fast but then timing it over a 1/4 mile and finding it isn't as quick as it feels. I will continue to recommend the TC heads to those that I believe would suit its tonal characteristics and loudness (not power!) and I will continue to recommend a variety of other heads for those who won't get on with it so well. There's no rocket science, just clever DSP. If you like the tone and it's loud enough for you then what's the problem? It isn't a panacea and the actual power output and frequency response help explain why.

[charic]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='1352308' date='Aug 26 2011, 12:43 PM']"Masses of low end" does not always equal deep low end. As I said there are about three octaves of bottom in a bass guitar's sound - if 80-320Hz are loud but 40-80Hz absent you might deem it to have "masses of low end" even though it does not have deep low end. There are enough happy Schroeder users saying their cabs have tons of bottom to show that we all have different needs and wants!

Regarding how much power you can put into a cab, here's a quote from one of the early hi-fi pioneers regarding bass guitar amplification:

"With a 15 watt amplifier I would advise the use of one 15" unit or a couple of 12"."

That's so the speakers can handle the power! Is anyone here still using that 7.5W per 12" rule of thumb or have things progressed? And things don't stop progressing...[/quote]


Alex,

I honestly have a deep respect for what you do and how well you do it. Kudos but from reading your posts the one thing that I need to ask is:

Given you had to choose one exclusively which would you choose. An amp/cab with absolutely brilliant technical specifications and sounded cack or an amp/cab with cack technical specifications that sounded great. I only ask as at times you come across as somewhat 'clinical'.

I hope you don't take any offence to this as that is not how it is intended.

[charic]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1352331' date='Aug 26 2011, 01:00 PM']That's like saying my 0 to 60 in 5 seconds is better than your 0 to 60 in 5 seconds because you have a turbo 4 cyl and I've got a V8.

I bet Ampeg's engineers, if they have any left, have an RH450 in pieces in their lab right now, [s]figuring out how it works[/s] searching for pixie dust.[/quote]

Fixed

[dave_bass5]

I thought we went over all this in the thread i started a few weeks ago.

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=148906"]TC RH450 review[/url]

[Musicman20]

Ampeg still cant create a true micro amp that doesnt have a failure rate (see the thread on Talkbass) and thats just a simple small solid state 200W amp with very simplistic controls.

Everything else they make is still too large/too heavy for the market they are trying to reach.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Musicman20

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='charic' post='1352350' date='Aug 26 2011, 01:14 PM']Given you had to choose one exclusively which would you choose. An amp/cab with absolutely brilliant technical specifications and sounded cack or an amp/cab with cack technical specifications that sounded great. I only ask as at times you come across as somewhat 'clinical'.[/quote]

If it sounds cack then the brilliant tech specs are a lie. Or you are mistaken when you think they are brilliant. If you understand them, you can tell roughly what it will sound like, distortion character is about the only one that is hard to express, and you can flavour that outside of the amp.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Merton' post='1352340' date='Aug 26 2011, 08:05 AM']Haha! About to respond to your PM sir

As for this thread, what a lot of nonsense. Who gives a f*** what the rating is as long as it sounds good to the person using it. And the audience, I guess [/quote]
There are two distinct camps on this issue at TB. One (which I subscribe to) says that lying about the power ratings of their amps is just plain wrong. The other, which is typified by responses like yours, says that as long as it sounds good we don't care if they are advertising fraudulent power ratings. Consider that attitude the next time you go to the petrol pump that may, or may not, be giving you every liter you've paid for.

[alexclaber]

Charic, if you read through the Barefaced site and my BGM columns you'll find the answer. But if you haven't got the time then bear these points in mind:

1. Most of the tone is down to the player.
2. The best tone in the world is no use if no-one can hear it.
3. I'd rather listen to great music than great bass tone.
4. You can't buy talent or tone. But you can work hard to improve your musicality, your bass playing and your tone, with much better results than through spending money.
5. I'm not the best bassist in the world but no-one is better at playing like me - and I'm all about feel, groove and tone. I'll happily play through almost anything and get a good tone through almost anything (but I may turn some guitar amps down down in the process).
6. Talk to me about music and bass playing and you'll get music and art and groove oriented language. Talk to me about amplification and you'll mostly get 'sterile' matter of fact engineering language.

I've been talking about music, bass playing and bass gear on forums/newgroups since 1997. By the time basschat came into being I knew where I was as a musician and artist and was getting back into engineering, hence the skew of my posts on here. Get trapped in a room with me, a bass and a drum kit and I'm likely to want to jam and work on grooves until my fingers fall off! And when they do and I stop I'll probably start dissecting your groove playing and tell you where you need to work on your timing, note placements, dynamics and tone. And then start playing again.

Regarding 'cack specifications', specs aren't good or bad, they just are what they are. Some specs may mean something won't work for your needs but will work for someone else's. We are the creators of the music - not the instruments, not the amps, not the cabs. If you think of it like audiophiles think about hi-fi systems then you're barking up the wrong tree!

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1352440' date='Aug 26 2011, 02:01 PM']There are two distinct camps on this issue at TB. One (which I subscribe to) says that lying about the power ratings of their amps is just plain wrong. The other, which is typified by responses like yours, says that as long as it sounds good we don't care if they are advertising fraudulent power ratings. Consider that attitude the next time you go to the petrol pump that may, or may not, be giving you every liter you've paid for.[/quote]

Its not really the same though. If they gave you a different petrol, less of it, but it in fact does exactly the same as the other spec wise, or in fact outperforms, (which we have heard this amp do) then there is no problem. Sure they should have maybe marketed it differently, but the amount of crazy passionate responses by people who havent played or heard the amp looks like a witch hunt, and I think they should probably get out more and play bass more.

[thodrik]

Apart from the creative watts rating, I though that the BGM magazine gave a pretty good review. The watts issue has been jumped on by Talkbass folk, leading to lots of criticism. Some of the criticism is that a 236 watt amp has been marketed as a 450 watt amp.

Regardless of whether the TC amp is a good product (it is), TC have really come across quite badly with the marketing of the watts ratings. They are not the only company to do this, they just got caught out and their 'quasi-watts' explanation is fairly weak and is something they should really have advertised more clearly before this all came to light.

The fact that it is 236 watts does not make it any less of a giggable amp.

Edited August 26, 2011 by thodrik

[Musicman20]

The more that thread goes on, the more immensely funny it becomes. I wonder why there is so much venom, and why the witch hunt? You don't see it against Genz/MB, when they release amps that dont reach their wattage on bench tests. (Not an attack on those companies, btw, great products).

Edited August 26, 2011 by Musicman20

[Marlat]

I really don't understand the TCE apologists. Its clear (and TCE have admitted) that they used a measure of "watts" that is not in accordance with market standard and none of their marketing materials makes this clear. Whatever you think about the product (and by all accounts it is a very good product), is this the kind of marketing behaviour you would want to encourage for product manufacturers? I think most people would prefer that manufacturers were honest about the specifications they were providing for their products. The apologists are effectively saying that this behaviour should be forgiven because the product itself is good. Why can't we have a good product with honest marketing?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='thodrik' post='1352449' date='Aug 26 2011, 09:11 AM']The fact that it is 236 watts does not make it any less of a giggable amp.[/quote]Quite right. Only 167 HP doesn't make a Mazda MX-5 any less of a drivable car, and they see no need to advertise it as 300 'super special Mazda horsepower' as a result. The discussion isn't about how the amp works, it's about ethics. If you don't think it's bad form to lie that's your lot to deal with.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[Musicman20]

Ethics is a touch subject im afraid. Everyone will have their personal view on it. For example, I rarely will take any notice of an endorsee bashing a rival company. Why? Ethics. Plus, common sense.

[Marlat]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1352491' date='Aug 26 2011, 02:39 PM']Ethics is a touch subject im afraid. Everyone will have their personal view on it. For example, I rarely will take any notice of an endorsee bashing a rival company. Why? Ethics. Plus, common sense.[/quote]

What's your personal view on the ethics of what TCE have done?

[charic]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='1352441' date='Aug 26 2011, 02:01 PM']Charic, if you read through the Barefaced site and my BGM columns you'll find the answer. But if you haven't got the time then bear these points in mind:

1. Most of the tone is down to the player.
2. The best tone in the world is no use if no-one can hear it.
3. I'd rather listen to great music than great bass tone.
4. You can't buy talent or tone. But you can work hard to improve your musicality, your bass playing and your tone, with much better results than through spending money.
5. I'm not the best bassist in the world but no-one is better at playing like me - and I'm all about feel, groove and tone. I'll happily play through almost anything and get a good tone through almost anything (but I may turn some guitar amps down down in the process).
6. Talk to me about music and bass playing and you'll get music and art and groove oriented language. Talk to me about amplification and you'll mostly get 'sterile' matter of fact engineering language.

I've been talking about music, bass playing and bass gear on forums/newgroups since 1997. By the time basschat came into being I knew where I was as a musician and artist and was getting back into engineering, hence the skew of my posts on here. Get trapped in a room with me, a bass and a drum kit and I'm likely to want to jam and work on grooves until my fingers fall off! And when they do and I stop I'll probably start dissecting your groove playing and tell you where you need to work on your timing, note placements, dynamics and tone. And then start playing again.

Regarding 'cack specifications', specs aren't good or bad, they just are what they are. Some specs may mean something won't work for your needs but will work for someone else's. We are the creators of the music - not the instruments, not the amps, not the cabs. If you think of it like audiophiles think about hi-fi systems then you're barking up the wrong tree![/quote]

Thanks for the reply Alex,

I think that clears up my view somewhat. I think the my main confusion came from your posts on deep low end. You have very specific views on what is 'technically' deep low end and they seemed to differ from what may have been considered deep low end.

To be honest it was less about tone etc than your personal view on what an amp/cab can be. I've read through the barefaced site a fair few times and have been sorely tempted a few times with the cabs that you produce.

Rik

[EBS_freak]

Feck me, there's some funny posts within here. EDIT: and I love the arrogance of one particular post.

For the record, a watt is a watt and should be stated as such. If an amp manufacturer is going to specifiy watts, they should do it appropriately. RMS, Peak and and at what loading.

Edited August 26, 2011 by EBS_freak

[chris_b]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1352440' date='Aug 26 2011, 02:01 PM']....Consider that attitude the next time you go to the petrol pump that may, or may not, be giving you every liter you've paid for....[/quote]
Bill, they can give me bath water if my car still does 60 mpg.

Most mainstream cabs are usually incapable of performing to their published specs. In my opinion that would be a borderline "fraudulent" situation.

TC might not be a 450watt amp but they have some clever techy bits that raise its level to the performance of a 450watt amp, so "fraudulent" is not an accurate description in this case.

Even so the "pack mentality" of many TB posts is more puzzling than the TC amp specs.

Edited August 26, 2011 by chris_b

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Mark Latimour' post='1352496' date='Aug 26 2011, 02:41 PM']What's your personal view on the ethics of what TCE have done?[/quote]

Probably should have been marketed differently. But, Ive seen countless amps rated as one wattage, and tested as lower.

I agree, they need to make a statement and clarify properly. Either that, or provide more evidence.

I don't think its the criminal act many other's seem to think it is. If it performed badly/underpowered, then yes, Id be angry, but in my eyes, something is a miss with these ratings. There has to be more to it, more than we understand, that allows the amp to be so incredibly punchy and, IMO, powerful.

Part of the backlash is probably that some competitors are annoyed TC managed to snatch so much of the market with their first ever bass amp.

[whynot]

Well I'm looking for an RH750 if anyones selling in disgust, or should that have been called an RH393?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='1352504' date='Aug 26 2011, 02:45 PM']For the record, a watt is a watt and should be stated as such. If an amp manufacturer is going to specifiy watts, they should do it appropriately. RMS, Peak and and at what loading.[/quote]

And THD, that is kind of an important one.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1352510' date='Aug 26 2011, 02:47 PM']TC might not be a 450watt amp but they have some clever techy bits that raise its level to the performance of a 450watt amp, so "fraudulent" is not an accurate description in this case.[/quote]

The way i see it is no matter how loud the head goes, if it doesn't have 450watts then they are lying. The im sure they could use words like Equivalent, as loud as etc but then that might put people off, so knowing that they seem to be covering up the true spec's to help boost their sales. That to me is not honest.

[jackers]

I have to say, there are some very amusing posts in here (although none will match the shear stupidity of some of those on tb, haha).

I would just like to say that I tried out both the BH500 and the RH450 today at a music store in Guildford, and they were both very nice, very well made, amazing sounding heads. They are a million miles above the Ampeg PF series.

Now I fall very nicely into the camp that isn't really bothered by what the actual wattage rating is, because the quality and volume of the sound are far more important than a number on a piece of paper to me.

Yes I agree it could have been marketed better, and in a clearer way, and if you want to be all ethics minded, then I can see why you might be a bit let down by TC. But in the end it doesn't really make much of a difference, as it is just as powerful as a 450W head, and as I am not someone who gets a hard-on over power ratings, this news doesn't really bother me.

(/flameshield up )

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1352555' date='Aug 26 2011, 03:15 PM']And THD, that is kind of an important one.[/quote]

Absolutely!