So... The RH450 is actually a 236w head???

[Mr. Foxen]

Also, an amp that distorts will give the impression of being louder at lower wattage from the harmonics, but also, its wattage will show up low, because you call it maximum just before it distorts however much. It might be 236w at 0.01% distortion, but 500w at probably acceptable 5% (depending on the character of the distortion).

[chris_b]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='1352057' date='Aug 26 2011, 09:53 AM']....If you like what the TC amp does as it runs out of power then you'll think it's loud. If you don't then you'll think it's overly compressed and lacking in deep bottom....[/quote]
My experience is that the Staccato has a ton of "deep bottom". It's the only amp I've used in the last 20 years where I've had to wind the bass back, and the volume is on a par with a 500 watt amp.

For years in the IT business we’ve seen aggressive marketing campaigns of this type. It’s called FUD, fear, uncertainty and doubt. You don’t concentrate your marketing on the positive aspects of your product you just try to undermine the competition by innuendo.

The hysteria being whipped up certainly smacks of being a coordinated "attack" on TC. This makes me suspicious of the motives. A bunch of Americans with an agenda doesn't make TC amps bad. We should see this campaign for what it is.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1352153' date='Aug 26 2011, 10:52 AM']Also, an amp that distorts will give the impression of being louder at lower wattage from the harmonics, but also, its wattage will show up low, because you call it maximum just before it distorts however much. It might be 236w at 0.01% distortion, but 500w at probably acceptable 5% (depending on the character of the distortion).[/quote]

Is this, do you think, how TC rated it?

I know many have said the modern AD200b's are not 200W clean tube power, but by heck, it is incredibly loud. Even if it wasn't id still keep it because the tone is great.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1352155' date='Aug 26 2011, 10:54 AM']My experience is that the Staccato has a ton of "deep bottom". It's the only amp I've used in the last 20 years where I've had to wind the bass back, and the volume is on a par with a 500 watt amp.

For years in the IT business we’ve seen aggressive marketing campaigns of this type. It’s called FUD, fear, uncertainty and doubt. You don’t concentrate your marketing on the positive aspects of your product you just try to undermine the competition by innuendo.

The hysteria being whipped up certainly smacks of being a coordinated "attack" on TC. This makes me suspicious of the motives. A bunch of Americans with an agenda doesn't make TC amps bad. We should see this campaign for what it is.[/quote]

Probably the most sensible post ive seen on this subject over the past week, plus one to that.

The Staccato has masses of low end, I tested one out before the RH450. It definitely does not lack low end/clean power and its essentially the same amp.

It does seem rather 'coordinated' with many saying 'id sell now if I were you'...ridiculous.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1352160' date='Aug 26 2011, 10:57 AM']Probably the most sensible post ive seen on this subject over the past week, plus one to that.

The Staccato has masses of low end, I tested one out before the RH450. It definitely does not lack low end/clean power and its essentially the same amp.

It does seem rather 'coordinated' with many saying 'id sell now if I were you'...ridiculous.[/quote]
Did you gig with the Staccato?

[Musicman20]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1352163' date='Aug 26 2011, 10:59 AM']Did you gig with the Staccato?[/quote]

It was literally an A/B test before I bought the 450, which I recently sold to get the 750.

So, no, I understand this isnt the greatest of tests, but I trust my ears. The Bass Merchant let me crank the living hell out of both of them as they are on industrial estate. Two RS cabs. The clear deep bottom end of the Staccato is very obvious when A/Bed with the 450.

The bass was similar to the Streamliner, eg, I had to cut it, which was quite odd. Much more present highs as well.

I gigged with the 450 a fair few times, mainly in a pretty excessive modern punk band which involved very fast clear runs on bass. I was always impressed as were the soundmen.

Nowadays I have 2 micros I rotate for gigs. For sheer ease/features/mix cut, the 750 edges the Streamliner IMO. But, both have their merits of excellent tone, just different. The 450/750 is definitely more focussed on low mids, which personally I like. The STL900 to me is more about, as you noted 'meat and potatoes' bass tone. Very fat, very warm, clear smooth mids and highs. The bass is outstanding, but sometimes a little too much...it all depends

I have a LM3 incoming, so I intend to make a demo of sorts about all three amps into one cabinet/using one bass.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Musicman20

[markstuk]

My RH450 with a Barefaced S12T goes quite loud enough.... To put it into perspective I've got a H&K BaseBass 600 which I use into the same cab and in terms of volume there's not much difference, and I prefer the tone(s) of the RH450... I've also got a 1400W rig (PLX2402 - 2 x 700 into 2 x 4 ohms) into two EBS 410's using either the RH450 or Sansamp as a preamp.. This is loud, but not a quantum leap more than the RH/S12T combo.

I do take Alex's point though that the S12 is capable of going 4-5 db louder with a higher power amp...

[EBS_freak]

Guess it explains why the amp parped out into a squidgy mess when I tried it out, trying to push some serious top end.

[alexclaber]

Everyone's idea of what is deep bottom is different. From a purely quantitative sense the TC amps have been shown to not have seriously deep bottom, especially under heavy load - in other words they wouldn't work well driving subwoofers. However that doesn't mean they don't sound deep and fat to many bassists. A bassists idea of "masses of low end" is often an octave or more removed from what a subwoofer needs. Having to wind the bass knob back doesn't mean that the amp has tons of deep lows, it means it sounds too bassy for you - and that encompasses about three octaves. I'm talking about the bottom bass octave - not the other two which are the ones that you're finding too strong.

If you get to use a clean flat preamp into a big power amp you'll understand what I mean. If you haven't then you don't have a good benchmark to make qualitative assumptions from.

Read this too: [url="http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/Huge-lows.htm"]http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/Huge-lows.htm[/url]

The TC amps are good - we have enough happy TC+Barefaced customers to know that. But I'm still disappointed.

[Musicman20]

I think it also gets to the point when enough is enough. Use the PA for support and keep the stage volume reasonable, to protect your ears a little more if nothing else, (even when using ear protection I have been in bands where even that isnt quite enough).

Unless you are in Metallica, the volume is moot.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1352172' date='Aug 26 2011, 11:06 AM']It was literally an A/B test before I bought the 450, which I recently sold to get the 750.

So, no, I understand this isnt the greatest of tests, but I trust my ears. The Bass Merchant let me crank the living hell out of both of them as they are on industrial estate. Two RS cabs. The clear deep bottom end of the Staccato is very obvious when A/Bed with the 450.[/quote]
Ah, OK.

I've learned to never trust what I hear in a shop.

[Musicman20]

What is the 'deep' bass useful for though? Apart from damaging not-so-highly-spec'd cabinets? haha.

We are all different, but that deep sub bass is not my tone at all. Id find it very hard to find use for it onstage.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1352195' date='Aug 26 2011, 11:16 AM']Ah, OK.

I've learned to never trust what I hear in a shop. [/quote]

Its less of a shop and more of a testing ground! When I mean crank I really do mean crank to proper volume. After being a little OTT with regards to research on the recent micro amp surge, I knew what to look for.

If it doesnt sound great to my ears in the shop, then it wont sound great, to me, at home, or at low volume rehearsals, or potentially in the studio, so I wont buy it just for a tone that works 'on the gig' and thats it, (then we start getting into 'Sadowsky gig tone' territory).

A lot of players don't get to gig much and just play at home, record, etc, so as much as the gig is 80% of the reason we may buy amps, there are more uses, for me, that I find important.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Musicman20

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1352204' date='Aug 26 2011, 11:21 AM']Its less of a shop and more of a testing ground! When I mean crank I really do mean crank to proper volume. After being a little OTT with regards to research on the recent micro amp surge, I knew what to look for.

If it doesnt sound great to my ears in the shop, then it wont sound great, to me, at home, or at low volume rehearsals, or potentially in the studio, so I wont buy it just for a tone that works 'on the gig' and thats it, (then we start getting into 'Sadowsky gig tone' territory).

A lot of players don't get to gig much and just play at home, record, etc, so as much as the gig is 80% of the reason we may buy amps, there are more uses, for me, that I find important.[/quote]
Unless there's a drummer to my right, a couple of guitarists in the mix and a load of people standing in front of me (hopefully!), I don't find these situations realistic. For the same reason, I always take what I hear at bass bashes with a pinch of salt. They are fun, though.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1352194' date='Aug 26 2011, 11:16 AM']Unless you are in Metallica, the volume is moot.[/quote]

No it isn't.

Good but small cab + big power = nice tone and volume. Or large cab + small power = nice tone and volume.
But good but small cab + small power = not enough loudness or fatness.

Is that so hard to understand?

An analogy is sailing - small cab is like having a small sail. If you want to move at a decent speed you have two options - smaller boat (ie less bottom) or more wind (ie more amp power). Or get a bigger sail (bigger cab) or more sails (more small cabs).

[wateroftyne]

Again, I refer Musicman20 to my argument which is - my experience wasn't about volume. It was about dealing with peaks at 'reasonable' levels. Not to my taste.

[chris_b]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='1352192' date='Aug 26 2011, 11:15 AM'].... A bassists idea of "masses of low end" is often an octave or more removed from what a subwoofer needs. Having to wind the bass knob back doesn't mean that the amp has tons of deep lows, it means it sounds too bassy for you - and that encompasses about three octaves. I'm talking about the bottom bass octave - not the other two which are the ones that you're finding too strong....[/quote]
So my experience of "masses of low end" isn't "masses of low end"?

What is it then?

[Low End Bee]

Can we all slag this amp off so I can get one on the cheap please.

Ta.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1352234' date='Aug 26 2011, 11:43 AM']So my experience of "masses of low end" isn't "masses of low end"?

What is it then?[/quote]

I imagine super deep reggae/dubstep/drum & bass low end, which I would personally want the PA to work on. Ive never played a gig where they have wanted that chest thumping low end, although Ive seen a few large live bands do it at very large gigs.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='1352221' date='Aug 26 2011, 11:32 AM']No it isn't.

Good but small cab + big power = nice tone and volume. Or large cab + small power = nice tone and volume.
But good but small cab + small power = not enough loudness or fatness.

Is that so hard to understand?

An analogy is sailing - small cab is like having a small sail. If you want to move at a decent speed you have two options - smaller boat (ie less bottom) or more wind (ie more amp power). Or get a bigger sail (bigger cab) or more sails (more small cabs).[/quote]

Not in the slightest bit hard to understand, again, I tend to defer from delving too deep into audio engineering because I spend enough time keeping up to date with the English Legal System, so as you can imagine, I get to a point when I know I don't really need to go any further into the understanding for just enjoying being a bassist.

Again, I wouldnt want to throw 800W at a small cabinet, no matter what engineering went into it. If I was struggling, id add another cabinet.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Low End Bee' post='1352239' date='Aug 26 2011, 11:47 AM']Can we all slag this amp off so I can get one on the cheap please.

Ta.[/quote]

Yeah, I'm watching the for sale section right now...

[aldude]

Interesting stuff. I got my RH450 a few weeks ago but I am still to use it in a band situation.

One question is, what would the power/output be in a 3 cab scenario, i.e. three 8 ohm cabs which TC say is ok for the RH450 (well if you use their cabs anyway). I have a compact on the way from Alex which with the S12T I am guessing will be plenty loud enough but I am wondering if tthe 236W figure is at 4 ohm and more power would be output (e.g. 300W ish?) at 2.7 ohm (the impedance of three 8 ohm cabs).

[alexclaber]

"Masses of low end" does not always equal deep low end. As I said there are about three octaves of bottom in a bass guitar's sound - if 80-320Hz are loud but 40-80Hz absent you might deem it to have "masses of low end" even though it does not have deep low end. There are enough happy Schroeder users saying their cabs have tons of bottom to show that we all have different needs and wants!

Regarding how much power you can put into a cab, here's a quote from one of the early hi-fi pioneers regarding bass guitar amplification:

"With a 15 watt amplifier I would advise the use of one 15" unit or a couple of 12"."

That's so the speakers can handle the power! Is anyone here still using that 7.5W per 12" rule of thumb or have things progressed? And things don't stop progressing...

[chris_b]

That's like saying my 0 to 60 in 5 seconds is better than your 0 to 60 in 5 seconds because you have a turbo 4 cyl and I've got a V8.

I bet Ampeg's engineers, if they have any left, have an RH450 in pieces in their lab right now, figuring out how it works.

[chris_b]

.... anyway, Alex, please design your amp to support 2 ohm loads. Thanks.

Edited August 26, 2011 by chris_b