Got wood?

[Prime_BASS]

I have to admit I'm a total noob when it comes to non-wood basses. Perspex, carbon fiber, aluminium!!!

In terms of how they sound anyway.
Everytime I see some carbon fiber I get a little GAS attack. I even have a vinyl sheet of the stuff that I've been meaning to apply to something bass related.

Anyways, my question is what are the typical sound characteristics of Carbon Fiber, Perspex and so on.

[LukeFRC]

dunno if it helps but these are made out of carbon fiber with a few metal bits inside (and electrics) - they sound okay to me
[url="http://youtu.be/fnCb4VNZ9j8"]http://youtu.be/fnCb4VNZ9j8[/url]

[dc2009]

Obviously opposite ends of the spectrum, but I used to borrow basses (and loan mine out) to friends for band practices a few years back. The two basses I had experience of were an all carbon fibre Status headless and some form of budget perspex thing (tinted blue or pink I think).

The Status was probably the best sounding bass I have ever played. Every single note rang true and clear, more than I have ever heard any bass do (and this was through an average at best amp). I should make it clear that this bass was all one piece of fibre, not one of the wood bodied ones, though from my brief experience with Modulus basses, I would say that these sort of do the same job of making it very clear, just nothing like as crystal clear as the all-CF Status. This bass also cut through the mix just right, without being very loud. I would say that it shows up any mistake you make terribly, you would never get away with sloppy playing on one of them at a gig.

The budget, perspex thingy was heavier than your average nuclear submarine, and had terrible tone, playibility and overall sound. The only pro-level perspex bass I can think of is the Oliver Riedel sig that Sandberg (used to - I think) make. Very cool looking thing, check it out on their website (note it might be in the custom shop section), not a clue on the sound though.

On a side note, that distinctive carbon fibre pattern looks the canine's testicles.

[bartelby]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1306978' date='Jul 17 2011, 07:34 PM']The only pro-level perspex bass I can think of is the Oliver Riedel sig that Sandberg (used to - I think) make. Very cool looking thing, check it out on their website (note it might be in the custom shop section), not a clue on the sound though.[/quote]

Does the Ampeg Dan Armstrong not count as pro-level?

[dc2009]

[quote name='bartelby' post='1306993' date='Jul 17 2011, 07:51 PM']Does the Ampeg Dan Armstrong not count as pro-level?[/quote]

I said ones I can think of?
And that thing I've never even seen before.

[Lfalex v1.1]

I currently own;
Status Streamline - All Carbon Fibre.
Vigier Passion s3 - Alder/Maple and a healthy dose of Carbon fibre (with no truss rod)
Other basses inc a Fender with Graphite reinforced neck and all-wood basses. I have also owned a Luthite-bodied Ibanez EDB600. I've also played a Cutlass and a Peavey G-Bass (with a Moses neck IIRC)

Without boring you with the all the details, it's fair to say that the determining factors in the sound of a bass could be summarised as follows. These are in a [i]vague[/i] order of importance, as many will find them to be in a slightly different order!!!

Player/Technique
Strings and string condition
Pick-ups
Electrics
[b]Construction materials[/b]
Construction method
Hardware

Notice I've got materials well down the list. Carbon fibre is used in Bass manufacture for the same reasons as it is used in Aerospace/Motorsport etc. It's light, strong, rigid, resistant to heat,cold and humidity and can be (certainly in woven form) manufactured in a function-specific manner.
It's best musical attributes of evenness of tone and lack of deadspots are less important than its practical benefits of stability, rigidity and light weight.

Don't get me wrong, it's all good, but it's not the be-all and end-all. The Status is a great bass, but not just because it's Carbon Fibre. The Vigier is phenomenal (and I've never seen, heard or played a duff one) but not just because it's got carbon fibre in the neck. The Fender is a nice bass, but as far as I can tell, the carbon fibre is just keeping the neck where the truss rod tells it to be.

The Vigier and Streamline are a difficult pair- there are no conventional equivalents. Status don't make a wooden Streamline as a basis for comparison. Same for the Vigier. There's no "regular" model.

The Peavey I played was a m*nger. End of. Sonically drab and the neck profile wasn't very nice- and I don't often bother that much with neck profiles.
Not so the Cutlass. That was like a Stingray (which it is) on Steroids. It was an Ash-bodied 2EQ with an original Cutlass Neck. It just made it that bit "better". Like a Modulus Flea, in fact.

So carbon fibre can help. The best basis for comparison would be a before/after test of the same bass that's had it's original neck replaced with a carbon fibre one (Status do them for Jazz, Precision, Stingray4 and 5)

Down sides? It can sound cold and clinical. Not as warm as wood. This is not aided by the fact that nearly all Carbon necks have phenolic/phenowood/ebanol fretboards attached. Wood (Ebony!) would be amazing, but as the two materials expand at different rates and respond so differently to humidity, it's not a happy marriage.

Last of all, the Ibanez EDB600. It wasn't alone, either. There's an EDA,EDB and EDC variant (all no longer produced)
They had luthite bodies (some Corts still do) Wooden necks, though.

The two EDBs I've played (owned one, but it broke ) They're very good. Really even, smooth sound, but with a real depth of tone to it. Definitely at it's best with good strings, DRs in this case.

Don't expect miracles from the synthetic/composite materials. They're generally very neutral and even sounding, and above all, consistent.

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1306969' date='Jul 17 2011, 07:26 PM']Don't put that vinyl sticky backed plastic on anything.[/quote]

Not even a scratchplate?

And, more generally speaking, Perspex basses I recall;

Wesleys in varying shades.
Ampeg Dan Armstrong
Sandberg Plasma- is that the aforementioned model?

[dc2009]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='1307032' date='Jul 17 2011, 08:28 PM']Not even a scratchplate?

And, more generally speaking, Perspex basses I recall;

Wesleys in varying shades.
Ampeg Dan Armstrong
Sandberg Plasma- is that the aforementioned model?[/quote]

Wesley, that was the cheap one. Sandberg Plasma is what they called their Oliver Riedel sig for a while or it's the other way round I'm not sure.

As for Ampeg Dan Armstrong, not a clue about it.

[Chris2112]

To hear the sound of my Status Series II:



without the big reverb sound, of course...

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='1307068' date='Jul 17 2011, 08:01 PM']To hear the sound of my Status Series II:



without the big reverb sound, of course...

[/quote]
Dude, he played a Jaydee on that album - even though the cover shows a Status.

I have an Alembic and one of the original Steinberger XL5A's. They sound very different, I love the feel of the Alembic but the Steinberger sounds warmer. In fact I'd almost go as far to say that Steinberger have come as close to the ideal graphite neck as I've found. All of the advantages and not so much of the brittleness. Ped's vigier is a fantastic sounding bass though and has more in common with Status than Steinberger in terms of neck construction. I had three Modulus basses two of which were disappointing in one way or another and one just didn't fit with what I was looking for despite being a keeper in every other respect.

[Chris2112]

Oh rly? I always thought it was a Status. Far too crisp and clean sounding compared to the rest of his Jaydee sounds. Having had various Status basses over the years and played plenty of Jaydees, I've never found them to sound similar at all and would have put a months wages on that being a Status. Probably best I avoided the bookmakers then!

[Prime_BASS]

All very interesting.
I do like the cut through on status basses, but it is the cold and cynical sound I'm afraid of, I definatly prefer the more vintage tone on my ray than any modern permutations.

But the rigid/strong nature appeals as my ray and sterlings neck react badly to the great britsh weather and have to tweak the setup more than I'd like to if I didn't love the sound.

The only comparision in a status neck on a ray and the original is on YouTube buy a guy called David, but YouTube isn't really the forefront of quality sound.

It's also a lot of money, unless a groove bass pops up.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' post='1307160' date='Jul 17 2011, 10:18 PM']It's also a lot of money, unless a groove bass pops up.[/quote]

The Groove was all wood though.

[dc2009]

Carbon fibre = super expensive Johnston

[Prime_BASS]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1307185' date='Jul 17 2011, 10:41 PM']The Groove was all wood though.[/quote]

I see....

I don't think it's that's tacky, look alike crap, it's actual weave with a sticky back to stick to stuff. Quite expensive for single layer carbon.
Without trying to go off topic- my brother deals in carbon fibre with his work and car and guesstimates an A4 size sheet would be around £50.

[Rich]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='1307112' date='Jul 17 2011, 09:34 PM']Oh rly? I always thought it was a Status. Far too crisp and clean sounding compared to the rest of his Jaydee sounds. Having had various Status basses over the years and played plenty of Jaydees, I've never found them to sound similar at all and would have put a months wages on that being a Status. Probably best I avoided the bookmakers then! [/quote]
I can't speak for the Woolwich and Chippenham gigs on Physical Presence, but he definitely played a JD at the Reading gig. I know this as I was there

[BigRedX]

I'm a big fan of non-conventional materials for guitars and basses.

Carbon fibre over cedar:
[url="http://www.gusguitars.com/product.php?model_id=7"]Gus G3[/url].

Aluminium neck with a wooden body:
[url="http://www.vintagekramer.com/alum.htm"]Karmer 450B and XKB-10[/url] (I've also got a Hondo copy of a Kamer Duke).
[url="http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=45&brandID=3"]Hartke XL-4[/url]

Aluminium body with wooden neck:
[url="http://www.tokaijapan.com/talbobass.html"]Tokai Talbo B-135[/url]

All aluminium:
[url="http://borntorock.com/f4b.html"]Born To Rock F4B[/url]

Acrylic body, wooden neck:
Wesley

I've written about some of these basses in [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=66328"]this thread[/url]. I've also written about lots of other basses made out of unconventional materials [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=5525"]here[/url].

HTH

[dc2009]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1307324' date='Jul 18 2011, 12:09 AM']I'm a big fan of non-conventional materials for guitars and basses.

Carbon fibre over cedar:
[url="http://www.gusguitars.com/product.php?model_id=7"]Gus G3[/url].

Aluminium neck with a wooden body:
[url="http://www.vintagekramer.com/alum.htm"]Karmer 450B and XKB-10[/url] (I've also got a Hondo copy of a Kamer Duke).
[url="http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=45&brandID=3"]Hartke XL-4[/url]

Aluminium body with wooden neck:
[url="http://www.tokaijapan.com/talbobass.html"]Tokai Talbo B-135[/url]

All aluminium:
[url="http://borntorock.com/f4b.html"]Born To Rock F4B[/url]

Acrylic body, wooden neck:
Wesley

I've written about some of these basses in [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=66328"]this thread[/url]. I've also written about lots of other basses made out of unconventional materials [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=5525"]here[/url].

HTH[/quote]

That Tokai Talbo looks sweet as a nut - did they make any, and can you find any nowadays?

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1307185' date='Jul 17 2011, 09:41 PM']The Groove was all wood though.[/quote]
There was also one that had a factory fitted graphite neck, it came up for sale here 3 years ago.

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=17634"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=17634[/url]

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1307350' date='Jul 18 2011, 12:46 AM']That Tokai Talbo looks sweet as a nut - did they make any, and can you find any nowadays?[/quote]

They can be had. At a price. Someone on here has one, but I can't recall who. Not exactly common, though.
[useless snippet] "Talbo" is a contraction of [b]T[/b]okai [b]AL[/b]uminium [b]BO[/b]dy [/useless snippet] They did guitars, too.

Prime_Bass - A Status neck for a 'Ray would be less than £500, inclusive of VAT and inclusive of drilling the headstock for/fitting tuners and attaching the neck/setting up.

The necks alone used to be about £300, but may have increased in price. Someone (not the someone with the Talbo!) has an OLP MM3 with a Status neck on it that was supposed to be very good indeed...

[Prime_BASS]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='1307392' date='Jul 18 2011, 07:26 AM']They can be had. At a price. Someone on here has one, but I can't recall who. Not exactly common, though.
[useless snippet] "Talbo" is a contraction of [b]T[/b]okai [b]AL[/b]uminium [b]BO[/b]dy [/useless snippet] They did guitars, too.

Prime_Bass - A Status neck for a 'Ray would be less than £500, inclusive of VAT and inclusive of drilling the headstock for/fitting tuners and attaching the neck/setting up.

The necks alone used to be about £300, but may have increased in price. Someone (not the someone with the Talbo!) has an OLP MM3 with a Status neck on it that was supposed to be very good indeed...[/quote]

I was positive grooves had graphite necks... Although very rare.
I feel confident enough in buying the neck alone and doing the rest of the work myself, last I looked they were £345. Could still almost buy a bass for that.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' post='1307403' date='Jul 18 2011, 06:47 AM']Could still almost buy a bass for that.[/quote]
Wouldn't be a graphite necked bass though.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1307350' date='Jul 18 2011, 12:46 AM']That Tokai Talbo looks sweet as a nut - did they make any, and can you find any nowadays?[/quote]
Both myself and Bassassin own Talbo Basses.

They are listed on the [url="http://www.tokai-guitars.co.uk/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=17&category_id=6&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=31"]Tokai UK web site[/url] so you should be able to get a Tokai dealer to order one for you. They're not cheap though with a list price of £899.

However all the Talbo Basses I've seen for sale new in the UK have what I consider to be excess casting marks on the body (compared with the ones I've seen in Japan) which make me wonder if its the less than perfect examples which are being imported. I bought mine second hand from Ishibashi and the body is much cleaner than the ones I've seen in the UK.

The other thing to watch is that the aluminium body is hollow and although it's packed with foam can be prone to feedback which is something that has been a problem for Bassassin. I've not used mine outside the studio, so I've not come across this.

The sound is big and punchy, but I think that's more down to the pickup and pre-amp fitted rather than any inherent total qualities of the aluminium body. It's got a nice fast neck and balances nicely and of course looks great.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' post='1307403' date='Jul 18 2011, 07:47 AM']I was positive grooves had graphite necks... Although very rare.
I feel confident enough in buying the neck alone and doing the rest of the work myself, last I looked they were £345. Could still almost buy a bass for that.[/quote]
Carbon fibre construction is always expensive because of both the cost of the material and the labour involved in making them, which is far more involved than making a wooden neck.

I'd also read the fitting instructions on the Status web site very carefully and consider whether you have both the tools and the ability to fit one yourself. Again it's a lot more involved then the equivalent wooden part.

If you are looking at the getting a carbon fibre neck then I'd steer well clear of the Moses ones which don't have a very good reputation at all.

I'd also see if you can try an Enfield bass with a carbon fibre neck as these are made by Simon Farmer of Gus using his carbon fibre over light-weight tone wood construction, and IMO combine the structural advantages of carbon fibre with the more traditional tonal qualities of wood.

[Prime_BASS]

I think I played on big reds Gus at the Notts bass bash. If I remember rightly it felt super wierd, only being used to heavy basses.

I really have bad gas for one of those Mark king status basses, one with humbuckers, but I don't think I can bring myself to pay more than a grand on another bass, and I'm pretty happy with my stable as it is. I would have to totally fall in live with it.

Would you say a status neck on a ray gives a significant improvement of sound over rigidness, as it's now raining no doubt the stingray is going to need a tweak.