Chris2112 Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Different vinegar strokes for different folks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='Bilbo' post='1261493' date='Jun 8 2011, 05:31 PM']His cliches have a rock sensibility; they are based on entertainment not music.[/quote] You do make me smile sometimes, Bilbo! I'd hate to think music was invented as some form of 'entertainment' Love the Jaco though, good clips, thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 [quote name='LawrenceH' post='1262114' date='Jun 8 2011, 11:37 PM']You do make me smile sometimes, Bilbo! I'd hate to think music was invented as some form of 'entertainment' Love the Jaco though, good clips, thanks[/quote] I know what you are saying. I just meant that the drivers for a lot of his live playing are 'the 'show' not 'the music'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 (edited) [quote name='GreeneKing' post='1261479' date='Jun 8 2011, 05:22 PM']Sorry but I find your comment more than a bit lame. These carefully chosen pieces clearly show what talent he had. If you don't 'get it' that's absolutely fine, not a reflection on your worth or value whatsoever but please don't stand in judgement of something you're brain isn't wired to appreciate. I was listening to Hejira today and Refuge of the Roads is a great illustration of Jaco's less is more playing. Peter[/quote] I must admit that I type that particular line with a slight sense of wickedness. I accept that he had a talent, but what he did with it (based on those two examples) does nothing for me. I also accept that others' views may differ. Unfortunately if these carefully chosen pieces are presented as examples of his best work then I am not inspired to go and listen to any more. There are far 'less talented' players out there who I would far rather listen to, and that includes people in local pub bands. EDITED TO ADD: The Dreamland clip that someone posted is, to my ear, a far better example. I managed to listen to that all the way through and actually quite enjoyed it despite it not being my natural musical territory. Edited June 9, 2011 by Count Bassy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 [quote name='GreeneKing' post='1261479' date='Jun 8 2011, 05:22 PM']I was listening to Hejira today and Refuge of the Roads is a great illustration of Jaco's less is more playing.[/quote] Just found that on Youtube and it lifted the hairs on the back of my neck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 [quote name='wombatboter' post='1261431' date='Jun 8 2011, 04:45 PM']He was great but he had his flaws.. One of the most striking things I have ever read came from one of the children of Joe Zawinul (he took his children on tour and they saw the show every night) : "Daddy, why is Jaco playing the same thing every night ?" (referring to the solo-spot of Jaco). I started to dislike his manierisms, a musician (however great he is) who's on routine is boring..[/quote] It's well known that Jaco wasn't an improviser-he once said to Marcus Miller "You think you're bad because you can improvise". Take a piece like 'Continuum'...it's double tracked and it's note perfect. Even his 'Havona' solo was composed (including the Stravinsky quote). But to me,that isn't what Jaco is about. If I want to listen to a great electric bass improviser,I'd listen to Berlin or Patitucci. My favourite Jaco stuff is his big band. He really swings and his tunes like 'Liberty City' and 'Three Views of a Secret' are great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toneknob Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Everyone's got their favourite Jaco. Big Band, Joni, Weather Report, smooth, R&B, fusion trios, or tick more than one box from the above. I wish I could pack all that into 10 years or so of my recorded bass-playing history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris2112 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 [quote name='Doddy' post='1262703' date='Jun 9 2011, 02:10 PM']It's well known that Jaco wasn't an improviser-he once said to Marcus Miller "You think you're bad because you can improvise".[/quote] No, Miller is bad because he's been pedalling the same tired rubbish for years! My favourite Jaco recording outside of Weather Report would probably be the Trio of Doom record. I agree with John McLaughlin's stance that it should be heard because it's of historical value, but musically it isn't the train wreck it was made out to be. When the band gels it sounds great. Their version of Continuum is great. It's a shame Jaco's behaviour was so erratic, because if they had had time to sit down and rehearse or even write a record together I've no doubt it would be amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 I entirely understand peopole's preference for more 'melodic' thematic bass playing a la Dreamland but, for me, hearing that once is enough. I can't get excited about 'pretty' tunes. Got into and out of that 20+ years ago. It all sounds very predictable to me now so I look for more interesting things. I totally get that this is less accessible but I guess that's what I am looking for. The layman's accessible is my predictable. My favourite Jaco track is John and Mary off Word of Mouth. Has everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slobluesine Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 night passage aint bad either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Academy Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 [quote name='Doddy' post='1262703' date='Jun 9 2011, 02:10 PM']It's well known that Jaco wasn't an improviser-he once said to Marcus Miller "You think you're bad because you can improvise". Take a piece like 'Continuum'...it's double tracked and it's note perfect. Even his 'Havona' solo was composed (including the Stravinsky quote). But to me,that isn't what Jaco is about. If I want to listen to a great electric bass improviser,I'd listen to Berlin or Patitucci. My favourite Jaco stuff is his big band. He really swings and his tunes like 'Liberty City' and 'Three Views of a Secret' are great.[/quote] Amazing compositions. I think people forget his composing abilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Academy Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 [quote name='Chris2112' post='1262843' date='Jun 9 2011, 04:04 PM']No, Miller is bad because he's been pedalling the same tired rubbish for years! My favourite Jaco recording outside of Weather Report would probably be the Trio of Doom record. I agree with John McLaughlin's stance that it should be heard because it's of historical value, but musically it isn't the train wreck it was made out to be. When the band gels it sounds great. Their version of Continuum is great. It's a shame Jaco's behaviour was so erratic, because if they had had time to sit down and rehearse or even write a record together I've no doubt it would be amazing.[/quote] No, no Chris...Miller is GOOD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blamelouis Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 [quote name='slobluesine' post='1263102' date='Jun 9 2011, 06:16 PM']night passage aint bad either[/quote] x2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Academy Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Jeff Berlin once said that he doesn't play fretless because everyone just ends up sounding like Jaco. Apart from Pino, I think he may be right. Jaco's fretless playing was unique. I don't really care about his improvising. Don't you wish you'd written 'Teen Town'? It still stands as one of the best bass compositions ever, and is a bastard to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 I love most of Jaco's stuff, and tolerate one or two pieces because there's still some stuff that I can learn from them. "Invitation" is a must-hear (IMHO), even if you don't like steel pans, the compositions are amazing and the band is nice and tight. Even if you don't like his music the Bill Milkowski 'Jaco' book is a brilliant read. I can't help feeling a little sorry for Jaco everytime I hear him play, a really troubled genius. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4000 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 [quote name='Bilbo' post='1263096' date='Jun 9 2011, 07:11 PM']I entirely understand peopole's preference for more 'melodic' thematic bass playing a la Dreamland but, for me, hearing that once is enough. I can't get excited about 'pretty' tunes. Got into and out of that 20+ years ago. It all sounds very predictable to me now so I look for more interesting things. I totally get that this is less accessible but I guess that's what I am looking for. The layman's accessible is my predictable.[/quote] Funny, because that's kind of the opposite journey to mine. I was listening to (not just hearing) bebop when I was 6, 7 or 8 years old. I knew who Ray Brown, Charlie Parker, Dizzy etc were earlier than that. I wanted to be Buddy Rich at the age of six or seven. Other than the Beatles (obviously) I couldn't have named a single musician in any rock or pop band. And yet strangely I happily enjoy "predictable" music, and as I grew older I grew to love it more and more. I remember hearing Deep Purple aged around 14 and thinking "damn that's simple....but it's fantastic!". I rate AC/DC or ABBA as high as any jazz artist I've ever heard; higher, probably. There's a tiny hint of the superior about your post. Ultimately your interesting can be another person's anything but and vice versa. At the point where someone feels that only more supposedly "sophisticated" music is better or more worthy, they really don't understand the beauty of music anymore IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 (edited) [quote name='4000' post='1263166' date='Jun 9 2011, 07:55 PM']Funny, because that's kind of the opposite journey to mine. I was listening to (not just hearing) bebop when I was 6, 7 or 8 years old. I knew who Ray Brown, Charlie Parker, Dizzy etc were earlier than that. I wanted to be Buddy Rich at the age of six or seven. Other than the Beatles (obviously) I couldn't have named a single musician in any rock or pop band. And yet strangely I happily enjoy "predictable" music, and as I grew older I grew to love it more and more. I remember hearing Deep Purple aged around 14 and thinking "damn that's simple....but it's fantastic!". I rate AC/DC or ABBA as high as any jazz artist I've ever heard; higher, probably. There's a tiny hint of the superior about your post. Ultimately your interesting can be another person's anything but and vice versa. At the point where someone feels that only more supposedly "sophisticated" music is better or more worthy, they really don't understand the beauty of music anymore IMO.[/quote] Great post - real talent is in producing simple music that is also original and distinctive! Edited June 9, 2011 by peteb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 [quote name='peteb' post='1263407' date='Jun 9 2011, 10:53 PM']Great post - real talent is in producing simple music that is also original and distinctive![/quote] That is one talent. But producing incredibly complicated music that's original and distinctive is also a talent! The cliches of some genres annoy me with their tedious predictability but really it's just personal preference. I love funky stuff and I've listened to enough to 'get' it a lot more than many jazzers I've heard and played with - its predictability doesn't worry me one little bit because it makes me want to tap my fingers and dance around. There's joy in artful, intricate structure and there's joy in the minutiae and meat of a solid groove. I do think there's such thing as 'better' and 'worse' in music - it's not ALL relative - but it's harder to say one musical aim is superior to another. Jaco had a coherent musical vision that he knew how to achieve, which is what makes him undeniably a great musician irrespective of whether we enjoy it personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='LawrenceH' post='1263444' date='Jun 9 2011, 11:35 PM']That is one talent. But producing incredibly complicated music that's original and distinctive is also a talent! [/quote] Actually I agree, just that simplicity tends to mean that the music can be accessible to more people and is sometimes more difficult - just how do you produce something fresh with the same four chords? Not arguing about Jaco thru, one of the all time greats..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreeneKing Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='4000' post='1263166' date='Jun 9 2011, 07:55 PM']Funny, because that's kind of the opposite journey to mine. I was listening to (not just hearing) bebop when I was 6, 7 or 8 years old. I knew who Ray Brown, Charlie Parker, Dizzy etc were earlier than that. I wanted to be Buddy Rich at the age of six or seven. Other than the Beatles (obviously) I couldn't have named a single musician in any rock or pop band. And yet strangely I happily enjoy "predictable" music, and as I grew older I grew to love it more and more. I remember hearing Deep Purple aged around 14 and thinking "damn that's simple....but it's fantastic!". I rate AC/DC or ABBA as high as any jazz artist I've ever heard; higher, probably. There's a tiny hint of the superior about your post. Ultimately your interesting can be another person's anything but and vice versa. At the point where someone feels that only more supposedly "sophisticated" music is better or more worthy, they really don't understand the beauty of music anymore IMO.[/quote] A 'tiny' bit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Dave Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='LawrenceH' post='1263444' date='Jun 9 2011, 11:35 PM']That is one talent. But producing incredibly complicated music that's original and distinctive is also a talent! [/quote] True - but , unless you're bloody careful , a self indulgent and pretty pointless one. Play what you should , not merely what you can. I put that business back in my toy box years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcgiver69 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 The Jaco I learned to love is Jaco the groove player, he's like a hyperactive child running up and down filling every hole left by the other musicians in the band. Incredible sense of timming and feel. I love some of his solos and most of his compositions but as a player he was a force of pure groove. Here are some of my favourites: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 That version of I Shot The Sherriff sums up everything I can't stand about Jaco. 8 minutes(! ) of some of the most pointlessly self-indulgent wibbery* I've ever heard - fine for the rehearsal room where everyone can nod approvingly at each other**, but if they were playing in my garden, I'd close the curtains. * And I don't use that word lightly. Whatever it means... ** A bit like when the chickens used to come off stage in the Muppets... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Academy Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='Muzz' post='1263909' date='Jun 10 2011, 01:40 PM']That version of I Shot The Sherriff sums up everything I can't stand about Jaco. 8 minutes(! ) of some of the most pointlessly self-indulgent wibbery* I've ever heard - fine for the rehearsal room where everyone can nod approvingly at each other**, but if they were playing in my garden, I'd close the curtains. * And I don't use that word lightly. Whatever it means... ** A bit like when the chickens used to come off stage in the Muppets...[/quote] I think I'd like to have heard more space in Sheriff. However, the Joni Mitchell song is Jaco at the top of his game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='Muzz' post='1263909' date='Jun 10 2011, 01:40 PM']That version of I Shot The Sherriff sums up everything I can't stand about Jaco. 8 minutes(! ) of some of the most pointlessly self-indulgent wibbery* I've ever heard - fine for the rehearsal room where everyone can nod approvingly at each other**, but if they were playing in my garden, I'd close the curtains. * And I don't use that word lightly. Whatever it means... ** A bit like when the chickens used to come off stage in the Muppets...[/quote] The original was a model of grace and understatement from the man who might be my favourite ever player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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