Al Krow

Nah, storm in a tea cup. A £110 biliion industry is not going to be impacted except at the margin by a few visas on musicians or other artists / creatives coming to the UK. Seriously, exactly what is going to collapse / not happen if non-UK creatives have to get a visa? Is the US creative industry in tatters because it has visas? No, I didn't think so.

A £110 billion creative industry is not going to be impacted, other than at the tiniest margin, by the introduction of visas for overseas musicians coming to the UK. The US has much higher barriers to entry, and I don't see any sign of its creative industry collapsing. The gripe here is that the EU will respond in kind and that's going to mean the loss of work for UK musicians travelling to the EU.

Well actually I didn't, although the US hasn't done too badly I have to agree! But I wasn't aware of it being a union of separate nations? A union of states but not a union of countries (ie nations). And they did have the small incident of an internal spat in 1861, which resulted in 600,000+ deaths. We've not really had anything comparable in the last couple of hundred years between the nations of the UK. They've led the planet in pop and rock though. And have a pretty brutal visa regime for In-bound musicans...

What's your PhD on?

Haha they would wouldn't they - it goes against everything they were previously saying? But come on let's be balanced - it's just an example of import substitution; but seriously if you're not happy / worried with the broader point being made then you need first seek to shut down the post I was responding to which raised a valid concern about the "wider economy and who is going to work in the health service, care homes, pick fruit, etc…" Why only challenge the half of the discussion that you disagree with?

Soz, back to glass half full mode! The answer is what Maude outlined in his earlier post. Ok he describes this as "simplistic" but he does himself down - it's a well recognised economic concept of import substitution. Neither Nissan (nor the Project Fear brigade) wanted this leaking, but in the event of WTO terms trade deal at the end of the year they have a Plan B: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/03/nissan-eu-uk-hard-brexit (I'll try to limit my sources to left-of-centre rags otherwise it will be dismissed as propaganda. But it's not 😁). For me that's a classic example of import substitution and nimble behaviour when seeing an opportunity to grow their business. As you say, the alternative is limiting ambitions and / or going out of business. I have to agree with @ambient though, as musicians, we're at risk of being culturally poorer, although tbf I can't think of too many EU bands (well actually any) I would prefer to spend my time going to see over UK and US bands - but I appreciate that's just my taste in rock music.

Ah come on, let's not start making up history. At the time of IndeyRef1 who knew that the UK, as a whole, would vote to leave the EU two years later? There were no lies told on that score. The facts on the ground subsequently changed. And tbf that is arguably good grounds for IndeyRef2. Scotland will get another IndeyRef for sure, and probably keep having them until the people of Scotland deliver the "correct" answer - or will the next one be the deciding one which folk will agree to abide by for a generation? But don't assume if Scotland leaves the most successful, and 300 year old, union of any nations, the EU will then welcome Scotland back with open arms. Small issue of Catalonia means that the Spanish veto will be critical.

@BigRedX I think the choices are: (i) do nothing and you guarantee nothing will change; (ii) fight for your cause and if you fail then at least you've tried; (iii) if the new rules stay in place despite our collective best efforts, then you have to learn to live with them. Change happens all the time. When it does you have to adapt or go the way of the dinosaurs; it's the way of the world. Nokia was the largest mobile phone maker at the turn of the century. Spotify didn't even exist then. Woolworths were still on our high streets. Just three examples. We are where we are, it's a case of making the most of it. If that's an optimistic philosophy then I'm guilty as charged.

Haha I do indeed (and am even foolhardy enough to make a contribution to the leading left wing 'rag' for balance given that it doesn't have a pay wall unlike the right of centre 'broadsheets'). But please do provide the correct figures, if those I cited were wrong.

Frankly there is no need for us to put these visa requirements and costs on overseas musicians coming to the UK. FWIW the US has much higher barriers to entry and it has not killed its music scene there or more relevantly the music scene in Canada (unless I am mistaken about the latter). The relationship between Canada and the US is, in fact, a very good proxy for the relationship between the UK and EU, although we are significantly bigger economically, relatively speaking and also in absolute terms, than Canada is to the US. It's not as though I'm hearing cries of "oh great this will mean more work for British musicians". If you feel strongly about this, then be political! Write to your MPs and, as a musician, ask them why they are introducing this or ask them to challenge the government on this if they are an opposition MP. A letter received is considered to represent the views of a thousand constituents. @ambient @peteb - you chaps travel abroad to play a lot (something I have never done, I'm just a London and SE local performer). Why not put your heads together and draft a pro-forma letter that other folk can cut and paste? Maybe musicians unions are already on the case? The truth may be more subtle than we realise eg this is being set up so that it can be bargained away in return for the EU not doing the same. Who knows. But great if UK musicians made it clear that they don't need their manor protected in this way. No point shouting at the tide not to come in. Much better to build a flood barrier. PS just seen @DoubleOhStephan's post above which seems to have landed on exactly the same conclusion.

I know, I know But you could have at least quoted two posts relating to any point on opposing sides, for balance, of a thus-far very civilised debate which I think we are all enjoying and maybe even at risk of 'hearing' each other! The topic is indeed a big one and it doesn't fall into classic left / right territory. Face it - the B word is having a knock on to us BC'ers as musicians which it has been very good to understand, encompassing economics, culture, travel and the environment to name some of the themes coming out.

@Rich agreed - but please be balanced in your quoting; I was merely responding to points on farming made by fellow BC'ers. Back to visas for musicians everyone.

Nope that is not the attitude I would sign up for at all. Being nimble and making the most of opportunities - yes! Making sure you take care of your countrymen who are left behind through no fault of their own, for whatever reason - also yes! (See my earlier comment about having Eur 75 billion in our back pocket to smooth the transition). We are already changing the basis on which we support our farmers. The NFU has given this a massive thumbs up - and everyone is agreed there is no way that this new policy which is going to be good for farmers and the environment could have been put in place whilst we had to obey the dictat of the CAP. It's already one of the best things to have emerged in the last 4 weeks.

Oh dear: one of you is worried that we will have to pay more and the other about paying less! There are there are going to be winners and losers when change happens. It's the way of things. The nimble see opportunities, others see crisis. We're about to embark on some major changes as a nation, that's not in dispute; no point screaming at the tide not to come in. That really is the crux of my position. Right time to be nimble and spend some time on the fretboard

@Woodinblack Morning fella! When I say "choose our neighbours" I was using the phrase metaphorically. In plain English: the existing inhabitants of every nation in the world have the right to determine their immigration policy. That is a fundamental character of nationhood. It is only the members of the EU that have waived that right under FoM. The consent of the British people was never sought when FoM was granted in the first place; an act of massive arrogance on the part of our ruling class which has led directly to where we are today. You know that I defer to you on all matters engineering and electronics but I'm afraid I think you have missed the point on the economics e.g. yes exports to the EU may account for 40% of our exports, but what proportion of total UK economic activity do total exports account for? It's not 100% or anything close is it? We do a great deal else in the UK besides just export. (So if all exports are 20% of UK GDP then exports to the EU are 8% of UK GDP). Similarly a comment like everything will be more expensive, well no! We get to choose, so we can drop import duties on goods and services from the rest of the world if we want to. Britain will now get to decide what works best for its economy and no longer have to put 30% tariffs on certain goods just so that this helps workers in e.g. southern Europe. Agreed. Just check what has happened to the Italian economy in the last 20 years due to its membership of the Eurozone.

Trouble is the dire warnings from the Treasury, IMF and BofE at the time have been shown to be a long way from reality and many of these so called experts are rapidly changing their tune (IMF - "UK will outpace Eurozone this year and next"; "could be some real upside" - Mark Carney last month). Exports to the EU account for just 8% of our economy. We run a £70 billion trade deficit every year with our EU neighbours and they get most of the fish in our fisheries. And import substitution works both ways. Going forward we won't have to have tariffs on the rest of the worlds goods and services any higher than we have with our EU neighbours - that's a real level playing field! You'll have read just today that the EU are struggling to even agree a budget, that's partly because they are missing Eur 75 billion from the UK over the next 7 years. And we will be able to pay our farmers what we like to cushion the transition - remember we're gonna have a spare Eur 75 billion in our back pocket for exactly such contingencies. So I think you're being far too pessimistic; but then you'll have probably gathered by now I'm a glass half full sort of guy! See my post just above

There are going to be winners and losers when change happens. It's the way of things. The nimble see opportunities, others see crisis. We're about to embark on some major changes as a nation, that's not in dispute; no point screaming at the tide not to come in.

That's good to know on the train front. But this whole thread is about economics ie the fact that the cost of visas is going to be a deterrent to the itenerant bard.

Correct. We've essentially traded that right for the right to have a say who our neighbours here in the UK are going to be, in the broad sense, and to give equal opportunity to both Kiwi and Croat. Seems fair enough.

So how long does a return trip by train to Germany take? I find it hard to believe it's going to be cheaper than Easy Jet? Another factor to consider if this is boiling down to economics.

Exactly the same point should be made about flying around Europe to play gigs or EU musos coming to the UK. Using local artists is good for the environment.

Ah well...c'est la vie.

Given it's outstanding tracking and easy tweak-ability without needing any recourse to a PC, is that going to get it over the line in making it a keeper for you?

That would be nice. I understand Finland are about to bring that in 😉

Congrats - and a great price! Mine was £269 and even that's £20 cheaper than many. Hate to say it, but at £227 there are a bunch of bass pedals that are equally or more expensive and gonna be a lot less fun! How / what are you planning on using it for? Are you saying absent bananas, Rob doesn't? 😁