Kiwi

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='94355' date='Nov 26 2007, 12:19 AM']I'm thinking of starting up another project bass, based on a jazz body most likely, I'm looking for a real punch in the guts sort of sound, my last project was built to growl and sustain, which was pretty successful. So, what gives the punch? I've been told bolt on neck, light bridge and light body, and MM style pickup. Anything to add, experiences, details, philosophy and luthier voodoo, etc?[/quote] With that spec you might as well buy a Warwick Rockbass streamer basic. You might find it lacks a little warmth however. I'd suggest a stiff neck and soft body, make your own mind up about the woods.

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='95921' date='Nov 29 2007, 12:37 AM']Its the music that determines ones opinions not the number of strings.[/quote] +1 Couldn't agree more.

[quote name='dood' post='95396' date='Nov 27 2007, 11:13 PM']Lets nip this one in the bud shall we. I would very much like this thread to get back to a good discussion as suggested by the OP. Personal jibes, attacks etc that have nothing really to do with the subject are not necessary and I'm starting to get a little tired. Thanks, - no more warnings. Ooooh actually, I quite fancy dishing out some profile warnings to users as well.. see what takes my fancy. Chuck? What do you think?[/quote] Tscha! You you you. People on other forums might start to think I'm not in control any more.

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Status-Groove-5-String-Bass-UK-Active_W0QQitemZ140183143083QQihZ004QQcategoryZ4713QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Status-Groove-5-Stri...1QQcmdZViewItem[/url] One of these was my first 5 string - superb bass. I just found the body shape wasn't to my taste.

[quote name='dood' post='95362' date='Nov 27 2007, 10:34 PM']Its not the beard that people should fear... Chuck Norris just popped in for a cuppa and has a full can of b*tchslap on the go.[/quote] Does he take sugar and milk with his bitchslap?

...blimey SJA that one came out of left field. And I thought we were doing so well with this thread too. C'mon people, lets chill out a bit and get back on topic - ERB. Else Dood will set his goatee beard on you.

[quote name='6stringbassist' post='95292' date='Nov 27 2007, 08:31 PM']This thread seems to have lost its way a bit, its gone from discussing ERB's (rather pointlessly IMO, seeing as they do exist, and they aren't going to go away, and if anything the popularity of them is increasing), to openly and rudely criticising someones music and ability to compose.[/quote] If you go back to the first post, I don't think its gone too far off track, [quote name='bilbo230763' post='85902' date='Nov 9 2007, 01:32 PM']OK - I get the five string thing. I can even see the point in the six (Anthony Jackson is soooooo musical). But what music are you people playing on 7, 8, 9 or 11 string basses? All I ever hear is sub-bass tractor noises and pseudo guitar noodling, all circus tricks and never anything I would call enjoyable music (and, trust me, I am not narrow minded about it) . I have been out playing and watching live music for three decades now and rarely even see anyone playing a 5-string, never mind a 6. But what and where are you guys with the 9 string basses playing? Or do they never get out of the bedrooms?[/quote] Looking at the bigger picture for a second, I think the variety of posts on this thread has probably given Bilbo as good an illustration of the state of affairs surrounding ERB as he's likely to find anywhere. Even though specific posts somes veer off the topic a little, the circuitous discussions are as big an indication as any that there some unresolved issues in regard to how these instruments are percieved.

ap'strophe police? I'm lucky in that I haven't had too many moments of regret over gear. Wish I'd had the money in 1987 to buy an early Musicman Cutlass 1 - one without the Cutlass "1" on the headstock logo. Very unusual - asking price was NZ$2399 even back then though. I had the opportunity to buy a Jaydee Supernatural Mark King in white, #0026 in 1989 once but turned it down because it was worn out and the guy selling it sounded like he needed a fix. I missed out on a couple of ebay auctions where stuff went for a song but I didn't bid because I couldn't justify spending the money on something I didn't really need.

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='94955' date='Nov 27 2007, 10:27 AM']I heard this track first in about 1980 and still drool every time I hear it! 'Shadows and Light' is, for me, one of the best live LPs of all time (for some readon, the best tracks are missing off the CD). The DVD has all of the tracks on it. Mitchell, Jaco, Pat Metheny, Lyle Mays, Michale Bracker and Don Alias - WHAT A BAND!! That took me to the 'Mingus' LP (yes, vinyl). Great bass from our man - lots of space, no overplaying and funky as a mofo! But both versions of 'The Dry Cleaner From Des Moines' (a Mingus composition with lyrics by Mitchell) are fantastic. Go listen on Amazon for a taster - you'll buy it, I guarantee!! [/quote] This is my favourite Jaco tune by a long long way. There's something magical about how he and Joni weave around one another.

a bassline didn't want me to become a bassist, it was a second choice after I had to give up drums for medical reasons. First complete top 40 bass line I ever learned was New Years Day by U2 coz we had a geek American guitarist at high school whose father lectured at the nearby uni and he wanted someone to play bass while he did The Edge impressions over the top.

Some good stuff going on here. It's great that people are sharing their views and exploring some ideas together.

Hi Gary, welcome

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='94633' date='Nov 26 2007, 04:55 PM']I understand that Keith Jarrett thinks any music over and above that of the solo performer will inevitably require compromise. I guess its is true in a way but I see music as a communal activity because, even if you are a solo performer, the moment the music is out there as sound, its beauty is in the ear of the beholder. There are now two people involved so the debate begins anew.[/quote] That's the point I was trying to make. Any artist who wants to be appreciated enters into a form of consensus [u]if they care[/u] about getting recognition. Where that point of balance between their vision and their tolerance of compromise is achieved is another question, however. Some artists don't need to compromise their vision and get recognised anyway, such as Banksy. But he must care about recognition or he wouldn't feel like putting his works in high profile locations. [quote name='bilbo230763' post='94633' date='Nov 26 2007, 04:55 PM']I think the role of the innovator is a lot easier to take a perspective on with hindsight. Remember Stanley Jordan - whatever happened to him? For every innovator who succeeds in moving the art form forward, there are 1,000s taking it up all sorts of blind alleys. Who is to say who is right, other than a concensus? I just think that the debate is more important than the outcome![/quote] This is interesting, because you're describing a process of natural selection to a certain degree. Survival of the fittest. But its also possible for musical performers to come back from the dead, The Police could be a good example of that although whether their music is still innovative is another question.

I like it, there's an elegant simplicity to it and there's no question about the quality of the materials used. The price is enough to make me break out in a sweat though. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night with all that dosh wrapped up in one instrument.

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='94607' date='Nov 26 2007, 04:13 PM']Absolutely true, but the context in question is that of a discussion about ERBs - our objectives are simply to enhance our music (I think?),[/quote] We're taking a circuitous route around to the point I wanted to make which was, there's almost always something of mutual interest between two 'interest groups'. Trick is to find out what that is and build emphasis and agreement around it. Its classic negotiation, very typical of the type employed in the Northern Ireland Peace Talks for example. [quote name='queenofthedepths' post='94607' date='Nov 26 2007, 04:13 PM']quality is completely subjective and CAN'T be defined properly,[/quote] Thats one of the advantages of achieving consensus. A team can all agree what is acceptable quality given that they all want to achieve the end result. The other advantage is spreading and managing risk. If a [u]musician/song writer[/u] doesn't want to reach a consensus within a [u]production[/u] team (for example because they believe the process will lead to unacceptable [u]creative [/u]compromise) then they have the option of leaving the team, of course. But if they can't find another team to work with, they can also take on more responsibility for not only creating but also delivering everything they want to see. However even if an artistic loner has the help of people to achieve their creative vision, that's an example of consensus, its just that the balance is very much in favour of the artist - Prince would be a classic example of this. Prince also takes on more responsibility and risk if things fail but he seems quite comfortable with that approach knowing that he has the fan base he has I guess. It might be that ERB'ers also see themselves as innovators, trail blazing their own paths but thats no reason for any individual to be intolerant of those who choose a more traditional route. In fact, if anything I think an innovative ERBer still depends on traditional forms of playing to help them define who they are as players. [quote name='queenofthedepths' post='94607' date='Nov 26 2007, 04:13 PM']cost is virtually nothing, as we are all willing to keep contributing to the discussion and just need to get past any unnecessary aggro, and time is pretty much infinite (I hope there's no time limit for basschat anyway!) - whilst this may not be the most wonderful example of discussion on this overall rather brilliant website, I see no reason it should end, whilst people still have opinions to express... unfortunately, it seems that we've fallen into a trap of discussing the discussion itself, which is pretty much pointless... with that in mind, I probably won't say anything more about it[/quote] OK, I think you might have misunderstood me a little there but its not important. I have a soft spot for more circuitous routes of discussion because they're a lot more interesting than people simply stating their opinion and leaving, so to speak.

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='94544' date='Nov 26 2007, 01:57 PM']Buttt even after reaching a consensus, that doesn't mean you've achieved perfection...[/quote] Often there's a logrithmic curve of effort in relation to how close to perfection you can get. Its up to an individual to decide how much effort they want to and how far they will get for that effort. A bit like increases in horsepower vs improved acceleration times in cars for example, the price of basses in relation to increases in quality as they get more expensive. [quote name='queenofthedepths' post='94544' date='Nov 26 2007, 01:57 PM']consensus doesn't usually refer to universal consensus; there'll always be someone who's not 100% happy with your result and there'll always be a way of improving what you've done - so never settle for anything, even if it's a consensus [/quote] There's also a difference between consensus and complete satisfaction. Consensus is best used within the context of a team where no single individual can achieve an objective without the help of others. Usually a team is needed and each person in that team has a clearly defined role and area of expertise. It often happens that there are conflicts between one area of expertise and another. Consensus is the process by which an [i]acceptable[/i] balance can be achieved between two opposing constraints. Consensus does produce things that are often imperfect but this is often the reality of working in an imperfect world. It surely depends on your terms of reference too? If you are just making something for yourself then you can make it as perfect as you like and be happy because you are setting the standards by which success is judged. You can even come back to it and change it if your feeling of what perfection is changes. A few things need to be in place for consensus to work properly: 1) A direction, or agreed idea of what you want to achieve which everyone has signed up to. (Objectives/benefits) 2) An agreement on how you will judge when what you are doing has been successful. (Quality) 3) How much effort you are all prepared to put in, to achieve the success you want. (cost) 4) By which time you expect to see results achieved (time - helps monitor progress) Often compromise happens because 2) hasn't been defined properly. Someone needs to be responsible for making sure that second best isn't being settled for when there's no good reason to accept it. It can also take an extraordinarily long time for the process to have a positive effect if the process is particularly complicated. It may require (like any negotiation process) both parties to burrow down into levels of detail not anticipated before discussions in order to resolve where conflicts lie and where progress towards reaching agreement can be made. A poor 'facilitator' can forget to emphasise 1) at key decision making points in the process which results in 'scope creep' or a change in the goals. For a solo recording artist, it may not be necessary to reach consensus on anything, up until they get to the delivery stage which is where aspirations meet real world limitations (for example, its too expensive to produce that surround sound DVD audio recording, or the technology isn't easily available.) Thats why I suggested it depends on context.

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='94528' date='Nov 26 2007, 01:38 PM']Just a little point to consider. Progress is never achieved by people who agree - only by people who argue, discuss and debate. If everyone agreed, there would be no need to innovate. Don't ever settle for concensus, for the middle ground.[/quote] In my experience consensus isn't compromise and doesn't necessarily represent the middle ground. Or else all popular bands would be playing sh*t music by the same definition and the public (to take the definition one step further) would also be happy listening to sh*t music. Consensus represents an area where opinions and values converge, it only represents compromise when the [i]process of achieving [/i]consensus is compromised.

Anything by the Flight of the Conchords. I think they're great... ...but there again I would. Fanfare of the Common Man - Aaron Copeland. About as close to pure musical perfection as I've ever encountered. Takes me on a rollercoaster ride into the stratosphere and then lands me gently on the ground at teh end, uplifted and satisfied. +1 Eva Cassidy, Somewhere Over the Rainbow. +1 Pat Methenys, A Map Of The World [url="http://www.caraluft.com"]Cara Luft[/url] is revitalising Canadian folk music with bassist Hugh MacMillan from Spirit of The West. Fast forward to 2:10 if you don't fancy hearing the religious stuff like me. Cara and Hugh, are both good friends of mine and I have her CD on near permanent play in my car. It's great driving music! The second track in at 3:12 is my favourite tune, an old Led Zep number which Cara plays because she's a rock chick at heart . The [url="http://cdbaby.com/mp3lofi/caraluft-04.m3u"]CD track [/url]has more percussion on the CD than live and the pounding groove along with the time signature is really catchy.

We generally don't travel more than 2 hours although we will travel further if the client is prepared to pay for B&B style accommodation.

[quote name='Steve Lawson' post='94239' date='Nov 25 2007, 07:00 PM']Those of you who've been dissing ERB will probably grow out of that when somebody makes some music using one that really connects with you, and those of you vigorously defending ERBs will probably do so with less ferocity when you've had a few more of your own prejudices exposed, and perhaps have a few more gigs to get ready for... It's all good, we're all friends and there's room in the bass-pool for all of us to do our thing. We just need to keep some perspective, and keep the goal as being the music. Great music is great music whether it's played on bass, banjo or accordian... with that, I'm going to go and start another thread to help focus our minds in that direction...[/quote] Blimey, welcome back Mr Lawson. S'been a while innit? I think the ERB vs 4 strings thing is one of those situations that can feed on itself VERY easily and over what? An few extra strings? ERB players can sometimes come across to more traditional players as a bit pretentious when this may not actually be the case. On the other hand, 4 string players may be seen by ERB'ers as being unnecessarily conservative, which may not be the case. All it takes is one side to get defensive and lash out and it sets the other on a path to retaliation. As someone who plays both, I think both sides need to get a bit of altitude on the situation. This whole exchange is PRECISELY the reason why I didn't think creating an ERB forum would be a good idea. I like playing 4 strings because I can get so many well known sounds which is just perfect for covers. However there are many occasions when I need extra range and a trad bass isn't going to do it. They're tools for goodness sakes, seeing people fall out over an issue as inconsequential as this is like watching people argue over whether a hammer is better than a screwdriver and whether it requires more/less technique to use. Be happy people, c'mon there are far more deserving things to argue about. Lets see some impressive 8,9,10 string playing and have a debate about whether the instrument is being taken forward musically or not. Or alternatively, whether Steve Lawson would look better if he shaved his head.

lol For a moment there I did take you seriously. I'm no language expert but I'd imagine that textspeak requires a fairly high level of skill in order to translate one form into the other on the fly. In any case, if the guy bugs you then use the ignore function. He'll have to learn to use a spell checker if he wants to be taken seriously.

I think the benefit of doubt needs to be given until proven otherwise. Besides which we have at least one other member who is dyslexic that I know of and we should be tolerant. If you don't like reading the posts its possible to use the forums ignore function. Feel free to PM me if you need some help on how to find it. Can we get this thread back on topic please?

and crutons?

Yeah this is going to be another interesting test of Jon's skills. Probably THE build diary to watch.