Kiwi

LOL ok, I'll have to see what I can sort out this evening by way of samples but the bass is still settling down so I'm not sure how indicative the samples will be. At the moment the sound of the bass is developing and its sort of a cross between a Fodera in the highs, a jazz bass with the scooped mids and a Spector in the lows.

[quote name='YouMa' post='417107' date='Feb 23 2009, 02:17 AM']Who makes the midi controlers are they built into the pickups?[/quote] A company called Graphtec made the piezo pickups and two of the three preamps. One is a buffer preamp for the piezo, another is a filter/mixing preamp which sends the signal from the buffer preamp to the 13 pin socket. The third preamp is Jon's own eq. The signal then goes to an Axon AX100 pitch to MIDI convertor which senses the pitch and converts the signal to MIDI before passing it on to whatever MIDI devices are attached.

If any of you aren't yet fed up with seeing photos of it in the build diary, Jon sent me the shots he's planning to use on the Shuker website. Remember where you saw them first [attachment=20786:thebestpic.jpg] [attachment=20758:DSC_1229.jpg][attachment=20759:DSC_1230.jpg][attachment=20760:DSC_1231.jpg] [attachment=20761:DSC_1233.jpg][attachment=20764:DSC_1236.jpg][attachment=20765:DSC_1237.jpg] [attachment=20767:DSC_1238.jpg][attachment=20768:DSC_1239.jpg][attachment=20769:DSC_1240.jpg] [attachment=20771:DSC_1241.jpg][attachment=20772:DSC_1242.jpg][attachment=20778:DSC_1250.jpg] [attachment=20773:DSC_1247.jpg][attachment=20774:DSC_1248.jpg][attachment=20775:DSC_1249.jpg] [attachment=20778:DSC_1250.jpg][attachment=20779:DSC_1251.jpg][attachment=20781:DSC_1255.jpg] [attachment=20787:DSC_1258.jpg][attachment=20783:DSC_1259.jpg][attachment=20784:DSC_1260.jpg] [attachment=20763:DSC_1235.jpg]

Jon's just sent me some of the pics he's going to use on the website. They really put mine to shame [attachment=20735:thebestpic.jpg] Here's one, the rest are going in the gear porn section.

Thanks for your comments gents I have sore finger tips from playing around last night trying to set it up with the Axon pitch to MIDI convertor. Jon emailed me today to see how I was getting on. I mentioned the various tweaks and Jon offered a solution to each. The piezo saddles are going to need a bit of a redesign and Jon will be talking with Graphtec directly about that. The preamp mid frequency can be tuned with a little trimpot in the control cavity (although that wiring is a nightmare to look at, I'll have to take a shot of that too). [quote name='Dr.Dave' post='416522' date='Feb 22 2009, 10:43 AM']20 past 6 last night , CK , when you posted. You must have gunned it home !!! As ever , the quality of that build looks first class , you must be very pleased. Esp like the little Kiwi. I love personal touches like that. Has Mr Shuker got anything better than that ratty old Trace Commando for his clients to try their new aquisitions out yet? It's been 18 months since I saw him and I said , tactfully , that folk coming for a trial of his stock basses are less likely to be impressed hearing the sound through that pretty inadequate practise amp. I take it he's out of Sheffield and into the peaks now - I want him to cast his eye over most of my basses and have a fiddle here and there. I'd like to try and tie him down to 'while you wait' for the couple of hours it's take but reckon it's unlikely. Still - walking country - I could have a couple of days there.[/quote] Hi Dave, yes he's in the peaks now in a bigger place with studio space up the top. He seems to be doing really well with a whole lot of his instock basses having sold just recently. He's also got the trace combo in his setting up workshop but uses Rob's Mesa Walkabout combo for demo purposes now. Sheffield is only 2.5 hours from Peterborough and I left Jon's at 3 so made it back with a bit of time to spare [quote name='Sean.Robinson' post='416362' date='Feb 21 2009, 08:42 PM']Hi congratulations on the Shuker, it looks amazing, ive been very keen on watching this as im having midi in my shuker so its great to hear your opinions out of curiosity how would you rate it overall to the smiths you used to own?[/quote] Hard to say right now because the bass hasn't really had much time with strings on, as I mentioned before its a bit like a piano at the moment. Even now I can hear the bass starting to relax a little and a little growl happening. The neck really needs a few months and another set up though. So I'm going to reserve judgement on the character of the instrument until thats happened. It has similar sort of pickup configuration to a Smith bass (humbuckers with parallel coils to cut the mids a little and boost the warmth) so should bear some similarities I hope. The playability is better than my Smith BSR6GN, the weight is less and the shape fits me better. [quote name='BigRedX' post='416565' date='Feb 22 2009, 12:16 PM']How much lag are you getting on the low B? Is it significantly more noticeable than the other strings? Looking at how the Axon MIDI converter works, the best you can hope for is 1 cycle of the fundamental wavelength which on your lowest note is going to be around 32ms. Does the response time get better as you play higher notes on the string? If not then you still need to play about with the volume and conversion sensitivity settings for the B string. If it does then unfortunately you're up against the laws of physics and you'll need to modify your technique to compensate. I'll be interested in hearing some sound clips of the MIDI side once you're "up to speed" on it[/quote] The Axon doesn't need to see 1 cycle for it to calculate the pitch. It just needs to see a portion and its neural net figures the rest, thats why its supposed to be the best on the market. However, the lag on the B string is still quite noticable although I can't really time it unfortunately. For slow tunes it would be OK but for fast tunes it would be difficult. I've adjusted the sensitivity but ended up going back to factory settings. Its always possible to transpose the synth modules so the upper strings play low notes and if all else fails the bass can also be used with Roland's V-bass without any modification. I'll have to give Ped's a go sometime and see what the lag is like. [quote name='GreeneKing' post='416568' date='Feb 22 2009, 12:19 PM']Immense, nice one. What next?[/quote] Jeez, there are about 4 things in the pipeline. He didn't get around to the guitars yet, but the steinberger headless guitar is going to have the same wood although a little less flamy as he's keeping the rest for a matching 6 string fretless which will feature a phenolic fingerboard (and no MIDI system). Rob apparently has finished doing the 3d body shape for my limited range of custom steinberger necked basses (they haven't been forgotten, its just taking a bloody long time to sort the programming out because the CNC machine is only 3 axis and I've asked for Spector type body curves). I'm still waiting for him to sort my strat body out too, I've asked for a grape burst (light green tint in the middle, purple on the outside) which he says he can't stand and hassles me about every time it gets mentioned. OK, so some more pics even though its overcast outside... Two of the control knobs are going to be replaced with smaller versions. This one is of the electronics. Not an awful lot of room in there for much else... and finally, the hair-tossing-action-type shot.

I was playing just now and noticed Jon's got the piezo and MIDI volumes swapped over...no wonder I was struggling with the layout of the knobs this afternoon! The bass sounds like a piano, no deadspots anywhere and each note sounds HUGE. Its a little like a graphite neck in that respect but with slightly less clatter. Its even a little Fodera-esque in terms of its playability and dryness but with slightly more sparkle. Listening to the piezo in stereo with a spot of chorus and reverb is divine. The bass does feel quite stiff though which I guess is understandable given it probably hasn't had a lot of time with strings on. The eq Jon fitted doesn't have the mid-sweep control because the unit he had wasn't working properly and the mid frequency on the installed pre isn't really centred to take out the lower mids. He also has some smaller control knobs for the piezo and MIDI volume. Its great to be able to flick through MIDI patches using the MIDI program change switch without having to step on something though.

Bass duly collected today. It all works, much to Jon's relief. After a few tweaks to the gain settings and pick-up coil configuration it was good to go and it's exactly what I ordered. The instrument has Jon's typically robust midrange response and I spent part of this afternoon regailing him with the sound of swooshy synths and string sections - much to his amusement. After being on the Spector for so long, the wider neck (which was based on my Smith 6) is going to take a little getting used to but the pickups sound exactly the way I hoped they would, I'm going to try it through a few amps to see how growly it gets. The piezo pickups sound gorgeous, there's a brightness but also a chewiness to the midrange (think a nylon stringed guitar) which makes solo playing sound really nice. There were a few issues with strings making contact with the saddles properly, they weren't supplied with bass strings in mind it seems. So Jon had to spend some time reprofiling the slots so the string would make better contact. I suspect that this might prove to be a bit of an achilles heel but apart from that its great! With the pitch to midi convertor, there's a fair bit of setting up needed I suspect. There's also quite noticable lag on the B string as well. I'm hoping the Axon AX100 can be set up to recognise the transients better. It was getting dark when I got home, so here are a few taster shots pending better light tomorrow. (Apologies for the goddawful carpet)

[quote name='mathewsanchez' post='415278' date='Feb 20 2009, 01:37 PM']Here's my GAS contribution: Ok, i'm wierd, I like art deco and I like fancy woods. Not sure if they sound any good but after all it's just GAS.[/quote] Oh blimey, you too? We need to talk some time...

Its a good commercial move, the biggest market retail sector is the beginners market.

welcome aboard hope you hang around for a bit

Someone was spam link baiting and I've deleted all their posts. It's often being done by real people for internet marketing companies and its going to happen more as the forum gets higher rankings on google unfortunately.

[quote name='YouMa' post='413783' date='Feb 19 2009, 12:12 AM']Im with you dude but i think the whole reason i play so well is because i have sort of bought into a dream,so many legends have started with workhorse fenders ,the old mojos a good fuel for good playing. Dont worry though if i get rich ill get a 62 jazz and a fodera,you can keep which ever wins the sound off im sure we will both go home happy.[/quote] I'll be keeping an eye on your posts in the gear porn forum then... I wouldn't compare a 62 jazz to a fodera though, they're dramatically different instruments. I have a 65 jazz with me at the moment and I really like it as a bass. Its lovely and warm and benign. But I don't know at the moment that its worth the asking price. The nostalgia isn't that relevant to me.

[quote name='YouMa' post='413760' date='Feb 18 2009, 11:37 PM']With old fenders and things i think its more of a spiritual thing. My uncle derek had a 62 strat that he never played it was imported from a guy who lived just outside nashville when i picked it up it sounds stupid but i just though about all the guys who played it and the gigs they played,when i wasnt even a twinkle in my teenage fathers eyes.[/quote] I think that's fair comment. If anyone buys a vintage Ferrari, the astronomical price tag is justified by the history. That kind of reflects on what kicked off the whole preCBS Fender thing in the first place, namely nostalgia and affluent baby boomers. However how much is that history worth? Bass players are considered by many luthiers to be more open minded than guitarists but where does the line between open mindedness and gullibility lie?

I think the thing to bear in mind is that if you want "the best" then someone out there is going to persuade you they're giving it to you and ask for a huge amount of money in return. Part of the mystique of Fodera comes from the exclusivity, there aren't enough instruments around for everyone to try and form a consensus. In such situations, the rumour tends to form the consensus and that can be augmented by over excited individuals who have managed to save enough to buy the instrument and want to justify their expenditure. The hype feeds itself in these situations. Its a very clever and cunning psychological marketing strategy based on a premise of exclusivity, aspiration and added value. Try before you buy otherwise don't believe the hype. They're definitely nice instruments but...how much are you prepared to pay for "x" improvement in quality? I would love for BGM to do a blind test of a reissue 62 Fender Jazz against a preCBS 62 Fender Jazz against a 20 year old Jazz bass (which is what preCBS Fenders were when the whole nostalgia thing originally kicked off in the 80's). Even if you noticed a difference, would you be prepared to pay £4000 more for the improvement? What are you buying for your money? Bragging rights? Have you looked at how much it costs in insurance alone to OWN a 62 Jazz? (All rhetorical questions, I might add)

I look at something like that with so many drivers as the work of the devil. I find it difficult to believe that the transient attack will be as crisp and clean as a single driver.

Me too, I forgot to mention that we had to drop the XLR output in the end as there wasn't room for it and there wasn't really a lot of justification for it at the end of the day. But to have the bass fully powered off the MIDI cable will be something! I'm going to take one of the Celinder Jazz basses up with me on Saturday for Jon to compare to the jazz basses he's already made.

The aesthetics are a matter of personal taste, the Beez Elite is the sexiest single cut I've ever seen. If someone considers a fender or musicman their ideal bass then it stands to reason that they probably won't see much value in a Fodera. I personally think they sound a little dry although the necks are reputedly super stable as they're glued up and left to settle in for 2-3 years before being used in an actual bass. I've toyed with the idea of owning a Fodera in the past but there are a lot of other basses out there which are nearly as good and the difference isn't worth £2000 extra to me, personally.

[quote name='dood' post='412777' date='Feb 18 2009, 10:05 AM']For real? ;o) I haven't heard from him very much at all this year! Think I have had about 5 mails total! lol lol[/quote] Well I hadn't heard much from him either until the last few months. Had to call him usually because he doesn't like the way emailing sucks up so much time. So I'm guessing he doesn't do it unless absolutely necessary because I'm still waiting for him to email me a couple of shots of the finished bass which he says are on his camera.

[quote name='basswesty' post='412724' date='Feb 18 2009, 09:11 AM']Oh, how true is that. There is sooooo much tone from [b]how[/b][i][/i] you play a fender. Its not just about plugging a playing.[/quote] Are you seriously suggesting that Fenders are the only passive jazz/precision type designs that are capable of being dynamic?

Alesis Quadraverb, its a little dated but otherwise there's nothing wrong with them. You can often pick the originals up for less than the price of an effects pedal! I've even seen one sell on Ebay for £30.

Thats one of the nicest single cut designs I've seen since the Fodera Beez Elite. Who made it?

[quote name='chris_b' post='412239' date='Feb 17 2009, 05:20 PM']Fenders are cheap, plentiful, can be easily replaced and bounce when your roady drops them. If I was on a tour with dozens of people milling around back stage I wouldn't take my Wal![/quote] Fender Jazz and Precisions are generally accepted as an industry standard and have been for a loooong time.

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='411757' date='Feb 17 2009, 10:11 AM']Have you owned a fender copy CK? If not, you've done well to avoid their designs for so long.[/quote] I had a Fender copy as my first bass for a year and then lasted for the next 16 years without ever owning another Fender inspired instrument. At least until I had a purple, custom graphite necked jazz made in 2002. I'm currently mulling over the purchase of my first Fender but will give myself until Sunday to make a decision. The Celinders are hard to beat as workhorses.