stingrayPete1977

That maple has turned out really well! does it sound more like a maple neck now? It is only a matter of time before a pub 'expert' tells you after the gig how nice it sounded and that he knew it was a maple board Ray as soon as he walked in, more mellow sounding

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1477124602' post='3159955'] surely if you're using an unmiced drum kit, which we do (trust me it's loud enough for a pub gig) you need a backline loud enough so you and the drummer can hear what's going off (assuming no IEM) which, will be loud enough for the rest of the room as is the unmiced drum kit, if you see what I'm getting at, we take about 40 minutes to set up and at the end of the gig we're away in about 20 minutes which for me is a big plus There's also the aesthetics to consider, having a big backine is more Rock and Roll IMO of course [/quote] This is back to the exact contradiction about putting the bass in the pa, you can't tell us that no one needs to be putting bass in the pa in a pub because the backline bass amp will fill the whole room even when full of people right to the back including hearing all those tasty fills up the dusty end then at the same time say that those who have bass in the pa and a small stage monitor or three wont be able to hear it right next to the pa and the monitors. Can you see what I'm saying? Both ways work fine I'll be doing both in the future, if I already had a pa big enough for every gig we'd ever do that cant handle bass I wouldn't change it but on the other hand if you already have some tasty pa tops then I'm not going to take those plus a large backline to a tiny pub or go out and buy another pair of smaller tops which need paying for and storing at home with the bigger ones I've already bought,lol If you are in the market for a new pa and like most people you are looking for smaller lightweight bass gear setup, I'm suggesting (not forcing) you buy a slightly bigger pa and a smaller set of amps, more room on stage in smaller venues and more control over the overall volume are massive plus points for anyone playing smaller venues, if it turns out to be a decent sized function room you just slide the volume up, job done

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477087395' post='3159861'] I think (from your drawing) you have an image stuck in your head. . [/quote] In what way? If you read the first line I clearly state that there will be variations on speaker sizes, what are you monitoring the guitar and bass with then?

See here's my thinking complete with expert diagrams! This is what many of us have used in the past and still are using ime. [URL=http://s997.photobucket.com/user/stingraypete/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-10/20161021_211739_zps3ryp3v7e.jpg.html][IMG]http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af100/stingraypete/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-10/20161021_211739_zps3ryp3v7e.jpg[/IMG][/URL] Variations on exact cab sizes yes I know, 12" subs, 2 1x12 bass cabs etc but the basic jist and hauling is the same more or less, you still need a mixing desk and power amp, two pa tops, stands, monitors for vocals but two large backline cabs for guitar and bass. The guitarist bringing a smaller amp, no mixer and no power amp but two bigger PA cabs is neither here nor there imo and most of us here haven't got TimR's guitarist in our band afaik? Now this is our setup, we sometimes use slightly larger backline if there is stage room. [URL=http://s997.photobucket.com/user/stingraypete/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-10/20161021_211722_zpsqegsc2hz.jpg.html][IMG]http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af100/stingraypete/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-10/20161021_211722_zpsqegsc2hz.jpg[/IMG][/URL] The option to add a hired sub or two takes that to anything I'd mix myself before calling in the pros with the full 6 D&B monitors! From what I gather this is what EBS_freak is running but with a pair of huge RCF subs for serious gigs? Coupled with the whole band on wireless instruments and wireless in ears that's a crazy quick setup and strip down with near identical FOH and a silent feed back free stage area regardless of the venue. [URL=http://s997.photobucket.com/user/stingraypete/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-10/20161021_211702_zpsd7kmtfhh.jpg.html][IMG]http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af100/stingraypete/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-10/20161021_211702_zpsd7kmtfhh.jpg[/IMG][/URL] Now I can see buying a huge RCF pa for the tickled trout would be crazy money just for that but who's band ONLY does gigs where you can only use the smallest kit? The storage space at home is now far smaller than what a typical old Peavey PA, desk,amps,subs and monitors take up. Now I appreciate Tim is happy and that Dad is happy, thats cool but not everyone reading this has either a guitarist that can't fit the tops in their car or bought their kit in 1973 and feels it and the enormous van required to get it to the gig are the best solution especially if they are in the market for a new system. There are lots of ways of doing small venue sound but for me a pa that can do small and large venues saves storage space at home and makes life simple, the fact the digital mixer has a van load of equivalent analogue kit in a box smaller than a shoe box is the cherry on top!

Hens teeth, unicorn milk etc etc

I was recommended the DB opera range for your situation, I'm told they are to RCF what squier are to Fender. We've only got the 10s for vocal duties and a bit of guitar but tbh they work ok with a sensible bit of kick drum and bass guitar with the bottom end cut a little bit, the drummer is changing his old fashion mountain of peavey kit to a single 12 or even a 15 version. They sound nice as vocal FOH too.

That looks really good, as a man that like you likes a proper mans nut width and jazz basses I can see that is a proper solution well done

Probably best, good luck

Mine was in tune when I bought it.

A digital mixer can be had for around £200 with all the features mentioned above, it will also save room in the guitarists car compared to a typical 1000 watt euro desk

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1477059563' post='3159601'] Fat Spanish waiter, you're just a fat Spanish waiter ... [/quote]Tú eres solamente un mesero muy gordo

I take the PA and my amp, the smallest vocal PA and a pair of 2x10 bass cabs would take up more room than my combo and two full range pa tops. I've pointed that out ten times so far only to be met with "we haven't got room for a bigger PA" so I think I'll give up about now.

It's not bigger, it's just better

If you've got to have a PA for vocals then I can't see a reason why you wouldn't make it a good one that can do all your gigs, less clutter to store and no need to worry about which kit to take.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1476999783' post='3159238'] I think if the RCF are full range an you're not carrying extra subs then that is an ideal solution. Our guitarist has a 2x12" and I have 2 2x10". Guitar gets miked up. But our tops are only 10". We did have some Makie 15" but they got too much weight for the guitarist to lug around just for vocals. I'm not sure we need to mic up the kit, although with a digital desk with decent onboard processors and someone who knows how to use them, I can see that being a good idea. BUT that's a lot of money to outlay for playing in pubs. I suppose it really depends on what you're expecting to present to the audience. [/quote] All of what you just said is exactly it, like most bands we don't just do tiny pubs so the outlay isn't just for tiny pubs, once you've got it you might as well use it even in a tiny pub. The point I am trying to make is that we aren't lugging anything just for a pub, it's more compact than a slightly smaller PA and a pair of big amps as back line, the back line is essentially our monitoring regardless of the size of the venue, if we had in ears for the wedding gigs we'd use them in the pub to save even more room and retain the same FOH sound we'd be providing for a decent paying function gig.

I'm sure I've read a similar quote regarding the British motorcycle industry

If you do take it off I'd suggest putting masking tape around the feet on the bass top so you know where it goes back on after,some people actually neatly mark them with a sharp pencil line that's barely visible with the bridge back on.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1476990441' post='3159100'] so we've got less kit than a band with a vocal pa,guitar amp and bass amp big enough to use as the FOH. [/quote] [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1476994011' post='3159140'] How do you monitor the bass and guitar? [/quote] What I'm saying is even with our small amps for monitoring and our PA we have less bulky kit than the typical pa tops, 4x10 bass and 4x12 guitar setup. In my old band we have gigged with a single LD Maui pa tower, roland V drums, variax guitar and an electric upright bass, near silence on stage!

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1476994011' post='3159140'] How do you monitor the bass and guitar? [/quote] I've got a selection of bass cabs 1x10, 1x12, 2x12 (big NeoxT one like a small 4x10), and a selection of amps 300,600 and 900 watt class D. Guitarist has a similar selection of guitar amps and extension cabs but we could run the guitar through the db opera monitors (we do have a tad anyway) and the bass with the bottom took out would work fine in the monitors too unless everyone is going to contradict themselves that the bass from the FOH won't fill the room and send a bit back my way? In reality I'd always take 1x12 as a minimum with that band. Most upright players have embraced small monitoring amps on stage or a quality wedge if it's a known pa yet the massive bass rig is still king in the tickled trout with the electric bass players, I'm sure we all know a band that would sound better if you took the big amps off them, gave them a small combo each and a nice PA system?

Thats fine if you are a plonka dad, your low end will indeed fill the whole room from the stage area but anyone that likes to get up the dusty end is going to struggle to get those twidly bits heard at the back without a bit in the pa if it's a bigger pub. Part of this depends what people are classing as pubs, the small ones we do easily with small combo amps and the monitors as a vocal pa, just like at a practice. On the other hand we do a few pubs that are certainly big enough to require everything in the pa. I still struggle with the "I can't be bothered to haul the pa just for a small pub, can someone help me in with my Ampeg fridge please?" idea, I see it a lot, those bands are always too loud. The band that followed us on at a festival earlier in the year were the same, must have the 8x10 for "my sound", it was the only thing you could hear over a massive pro EV PA in a marquee, we went for a curry after two songs......

The point is the RCF cabs are the whole PA, we use the same PA for small pubs as we do for a typical wedding venue including a small marquee, the PA is two cabs two small vocal monitors and the mixer, that's it, we don't really need amps at all so we've got less kit than a band with a vocal pa,guitar amp and bass amp big enough to use as the FOH.

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1476986352' post='3159057'] The tops are purely for the vocals. [/quote] Ours aren't, RCF 735 or 745 tops can handle the whole mix, bass, kick the lot. I was at a professional theatre watching a band yesterday, the smaller little side venue (150ish people) has the same ones as us hanging from the roof with full pro touring bands going through them, upright bass, full drum kit. I could hear the acoustic guitar strumming from my seat and the band members quiet talking voices yet the room was full of big fat plummy double bass, if he'd put an amp on stage big enough to fill the room including the articulate pieces the guitarists would need louder amps, the vocals louder wedges,then the drummer hits harder, guitarist turns up, bass now needs to come up in the mix, rinse and repeat! This is not to say it can't work, a small vocal PA and reasonable backline with clued up users can work well, if you are in that band then I'd say you were the exception rather than the rule.

[quote name='JoeEvans' timestamp='1476985729' post='3159049'] Does anyone gig with a single one of those 'bass unit and a pole' rigs, like the the Bose L1? They look as though they would work really well for the borderline zone between using a PA and not. [/quote] We do if the pub is REALLY small, I would use a 1x12, guitarist/singer use the 'Log Burner' with a vox amp simulator, anything bigger and we add a pair of RCF 735 cabs and just use the LD Maui as the stage monitor, no monitor wedges required with either setup. I know a pub venue that uses a pair as the monitoring and FOH as the house system that the landlord mixes,badly.

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1476980903' post='3159001'] Tops and subs in a pub? Way over the top. We play at a very reasonable volume, people dont want to be pinned against the wall when having a drink. We dont try to kill each other during rehearsal either, thats why we dont mic up there. I can hear clearly every instrument and the vocal monitor means I can also hear the harmonies. No problem. In small venues big PAs are just an ego thing and an over complication. [/quote] We are playing a golf club no bigger than a large pub on new years eve, we played there months ago, might even have been last year I think, plug in pa and speakers, upload the venue from the mixer memory bank and that's it ready to start the first set, no ego and no complication, and surely turning up to the tickled trout with a Marshall stack and an Ampeg svt with an 8x10 would be more of an ego thing than using small combos even at large festivals etc?

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1476978877' post='3158967'] Sendind everything to the PA provides a better overall sound mix. If the bass rig has to provide enough "heft" for the entire room then certainly it will be too loud on stage and will bother every bandmate (the same applies to the rest of the instruments). I can gig with my Promethean combo if needed, it just needs to be loud enough to cut through the drum set on stage and i allways EQ out the sub-lows from my rig so that it doesn't muddy the stage sound and everybody can hear it as articulate as possible. Let the subs do all the heavy lifting with the sub-80Hz region. "Playing 4 hours in front of a rig turned up to fill the entire room? Madness, i say!" (Sorry Mikel, had to do it ) [/quote] I agree with this 100%