More than 4?

[Dood]

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='88098' date='Nov 13 2007, 09:36 PM']Since ARGH seems to have pretty much closed the topic of extra strings, I'd like to pose a slightly different question: how much do ERB players use their upper frets? After all, that'd be taking advantage of the true extended range... I find that when I play my 6 or 7-string, I use the top end of the board a lot more than when I'm playing 4 or 5[/quote]


Oh THANKS..... lol lol.. I just get through reading the topic so I can answer and the subject changes lol lol lol *elbows QOTD jokingly*

Actually most points I fancied answering have been pretty much done good n' proper so I just have a cuppla comments to make..

Since we have a new question though, my answer is that yes, I do infact use the whole neck. For those that don't know, my 7 string is actually a 6er with an additional low F#, as opposed to a high F. I have owned a 7er with a high F, but this alternative tuning has proved very interesting in comparison!

I do use the whole board and find generally all my strings tend to go dull around the same time, suggesting that I am using them evenly? I do spend time 'north of the border / up the dusty end / in no mans land and can be a lot of fun getting to play harmonies in the same ocatves as the 'melody' instruments.

In the past I spent a lot of time playing in 3 piece bands, and also as a lead guitarist. It was completely natural to want to take the ability to play rhythm guitar parts /psuedo keyboard parts / accompaniements when I picked up an ERB for the first time.. and yes I do use all those techniques previously mentioned that appear to have the 'marmite effect', such as playing chords, tapping, strumming etc (but I'm yet to use a ..ehem.. personal massager for effect... eh Steve?!!)

So.. John.. yup, actually you are right (once again, this thread comes round often and we agree to disagree! ) Again, for the initiated, my 7er is pretty much designed to be a halfway house between a Chapman Stick and a Bass, that is true. Want cake and eat it! If I can have both a bass and a stick available at the same time without an instrument change, then that for me is a bonus ;o) - and its far cheaper for me, as I cant afford a 12 string stick lol!!

um.. what else.. oh yes.. the question about if anyone actually used an ERB in a band setting. I would answer absolutely yes, and there are countless ERBers out there that do. Now, one of my favourite styles of music is progressive rock/metal and there are plenty of bands using 5+ strings in context in a band setting.

For me, if I had to point out one straight away in said pigeon whole, look at John Myung from Dream Theater. I cite his playing as influencial.

I think I have rambled enough for now.

Ultimately, it doesnt *really* matter. You do it because you *enjoy* it. (Thats the only reason for the white stripes continuing, i'm sure...lol lol... NO I'M JOKING!!!!)

[6stringbassist]

I think that most people are really missing the whole point of ERBs.

They are not normal bass guitars, they are an extension to a bass guitar, as an F1 race car is to a Vauxhall Nova, you wouldn't use an F1 car to take the kids to school, or race a Nova in a grand prix.

Sure they can be used, as a normal bass, you can stand there in the pub and play Mustang Sally for half an hour if you are that way inclined, and only use the same notes as on a four string, which is what people keep saying....."I had a 6 string and used it in my covers band, I didn't use the extra strings so I sold it..etc, etc".

That's not THE role of an ERB.

OR....you can explore all of the harmonic possibilities that are open to you ie. I can play chords and a bassline at the same time, a melody and a bassline, a bassline and solo at the same time.

Not something that you'd do down the Duck and Ferret on a Saturday night I agree.

But in the right musical setting it works great...I was typing this while Dood was typing his answer above, a good example is John Myung, he uses it in the right setting.

I play in a four piece jazz group, featuring bass, drums, guitar and sax.
When the guitar solos it's just me and the drummer behind him, playing chords and bass notes fills the whole thing out.

When did you last see Matt Garrison (he plays a 5 string I know, but it has the range of a 6 string), or John Patitucci, or Steve Lawson, or Michael Manring, or Yves Carbonne playing the sort of songs that a pub band plays, they don't, they use the ERB for what it was intended for, that is playing BEYOND the role of a normal bass.

Edited November 13, 2007 by 6stringbassist

[Dood]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='88118' date='Nov 13 2007, 10:14 PM']I think what QOTD said about extending up invites people to say it might as well be played on guitar and I think the answer to that is that it sounds different. But if the bass player is playing the guitar part on his ERB who is playing the bass and I guess this is where having more than 1 bass player comes in Perhaps this is a plan for world domination where bands will have to have 2 bass players and 1 guitarist.[/quote]

Hey John.. woh, took so long talking about myself another post came it!

Just a question or two really, open for discussion: Looking at the 'role' of the bass player (and not necessarily talking about ERB as such), How far up the scale is a bass player allowed to play before he is no longer classed as a bass player?
Alternatively, how low should a guitarist be allowed to play before they are no longer playing a guitar part?
If there is a piano player in the band, should they not be allowed to play the bass parts or guitar parts if there are bass players and guitar players in the band as well?

Not trying to be provocative in a negative sense, i'm interested in roles as opposed to 'how many strings' ;o)

Cheers, all the best.

Dan

[MB1]

MB1.

Stop playing about with yer erbs and get em smoked!

[Dood]

[quote name='MB1' post='88131' date='Nov 13 2007, 10:36 PM']MB1.

Stop playing about with yer erbs and get em smoked![/quote]

Sliced n' diced over baking hot lasagne!

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='6stringbassist' post='88124' date='Nov 13 2007, 10:18 PM']I think that most people are really missing the whole point of ERBs.

They are not normal bass guitars, they are an extension to a bass guitar, as an F1 race car is to a Vauxhall Nova, you wouldn't use an F1 car to take the kids to school, or race a Nova in a grand prix.

Sure they can be used, as a normal bass, you can stand there in the pub and play Mustang Sally for half an hour if you are that way inclined, and only use the same notes as on a four string, which is what people keep saying....."I had a 6 string and used it in my covers band, I didn't use the extra strings so I sold it..etc, etc".

That's not THE role of an ERB.

OR....you can explore all of the harmonic possibilities that are open to you ie. I can play chords and a bassline at the same time, a melody and a bassline, a bassline and solo at the same time.

Not something that you'd do down the Duck and Ferret on a Saturday night I agree.

But in the right musical setting it works great...I was typing this while Dood was typing his answer above, a good example is John Myung, he uses it in the right setting.

I play in a four piece jazz group, featuring bass, drums, guitar and sax.
When the guitar solos it's just me and the drummer behind him, playing chords and bass notes fills the whole thing out.

When did you last see Matt Garrison (he plays a 5 string I know, but it has the range of a 6 string), or John Patitucci, or Steve Lawson, or Michael Manring, or Yves Carbonne playing the sort of songs that a pub band plays, they don't, they use the ERB for what it was intended for, that is playing BEYOND the role of a normal bass.[/quote]
+1 - that's the best summing up of this whole debate IMHO.

I've been reading this thread today and must admit that it's done my head in a bit - partly because I don't get what the fuss is about?

As I see it, if people want to drive a Lamboughini in an urban environment and they can afford the taxes and fuel costs involved, let them! Or, if some people want to spend thousands of pounds having plastic surgery to look better, younger, sexier (in their eyes), let them.. And if creative, musical people who may have started off playing 4 string bass guitar (like we all did most probably) decide they want to develop their talents and skills by taking the instrument onto a different and new level, great!

As far as I know, playing an ERB doesn't harm other people, infringe my moral, civil and legal rights and does in fact entertain an audience of punters out there who want something a bit new and different!

[ARGH]

This isnt the 60s,those times have gone,the studios are gone...those labels have gone,and music has changed.

15 years ago there was 2 possibly 3 ERB instruments worldwide,the 9 was not created until the late 90s (at Bill Dickins's request..Thanks Bill Conklin!!),the subcontra 12 was just over 2 years ago.

Fender Had sold several 1000s of 4 string instruments in that timeframe,Upright players converting from doghouses to the Elecric Bass,a simple jump from 4 string instrument to...4 string instrument (Saying that Jamerson didnt like the Electric Bass and saw it as a very inferior instrument compared to the upright). Very easy instruments to make. And for the uninitiated,it was shorter,lighter,and more audible in bands.

Seeing as how many people have a great difficulty just jumping one string up to five..or even two in the 6 string case (and as it is such a problem for you that these instruments you have never really played exist) I cant see uprightists then,as if this was the 60s,being able to play the modern ERB,in fact they would probably have a similer sneering 'thats a guitar...thats a Piano' attitude or an eagerness to embrace. Its a fear I find laughable,and in the latter a curiousity I enjoy.

To compare one timeframe past to the now is a redundant arguement,in musical recording,writing,and consumer terms.

ERBs are PUSHING the boundary, in Amp and speaker design,stringmaking,hardware...kinda like the 5s and 6's,graphite,active technology etc etc many years ago BUT REALLY going for it,and 4s will benefit from this,but they are NOT the cutting edge anymore,and like the developments in the past,they are still happening by little small ops in garages,flats,and groups in strange parts of the world.

There are less than probably 1500 or a 1000 of us on the planet,and after finding out about the instrument,Ive had a lot of offers of work in many many diffeent styles and Jamming sessions with musicians,who,if only to see,the instrument.....its opening doors. And if it does that for me,then its not pointless to play an ERB.

It dosent belong in the past,it dosent belong in the world of 1960whatever,its only link from that time is they are both plucked string instruments held like a guitar,It belongs in the now and beyond........

We write the music,as Ive said many times before....

"Bass is a word,not a restriction"

[ARGH]

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='88178' date='Nov 13 2007, 11:58 PM']+1 - that's the best summing up of this whole debate IMHO.

I've been reading this thread today and must admit that it's done my head in a bit - partly because I don't get what the fuss is about?

As I see it, if people want to drive a Lamboughini in an urban environment and they can afford the taxes and fuel costs involved, let them! Or, if some people want to spend thousands of pounds having plastic surgery to look better, younger, sexier (in their eyes), let them.. And if creative, musical people who may have started off playing 4 string bass guitar (like we all did most probably) decide they want to develop their talents and skills by taking the instrument onto a different and new level, great!

As far as I know, playing an ERB doesn't harm other people, infringe my moral, civil and legal rights and does in fact entertain an audience of punters out there who want something a bit new and different![/quote]

Agreed,If we all stayed the same,what fun would that be?

[7string]

I've been playing a 7 string for a few years now and I'd like to pick up one particular point.

As others have said, it's perfectly possible to play any bassline on an ERB which would normally be played on a 4 or 5 string bass. But if you have more strings, does that automatically dictate that you mustn't use it to play those kind of lines.

I play and listen to quite a few different genres of music and if I'm working out something on my 7 string and then decide to jam with tracks on a CD, I won't necessarily switch from my 7 to a 4. Similarly a pianist wouldn't want less keys just because he/she isn't playing pieces which use the entire range of the piano.

The ERB moniker only refers to the range of the instrument not to the music that should or shouldn't be played upon it.....

[ARGH]

[quote name='7string' post='88190' date='Nov 14 2007, 12:31 AM']I've been playing a 7 string for a few years now and I'd like to pick up one particular point.

As others have said, it's perfectly possible to play any bassline on an ERB which would normally be played on a 4 or 5 string bass. But if you have more strings, does that automatically dictate that you mustn't use it to play those kind of lines.

I play and listen to quite a few different genres of music and if I'm working out something on my 7 string and then decide to jam with tracks on a CD, I won't necessarily switch from my 7 to a 4. Similarly a pianist wouldn't want less keys just because he/she isn't playing pieces which use the entire range of the piano.

The ERB moniker only refers to the range of the instrument not to the music that should or shouldn't be played upon it.....[/quote]

My keys player in the covers band,as well as the drummer have been the most encouraging and interested at me getting the 9,in fact every keys player Ive ever met and jammed or played with has asked if I have a 5 or 6 string....

[Bilbo]

ARGH - many thanks for your erudite and considered response. Your points are noted and fully accepted.

I think the problem here is me. I used to be a bass nerd, buying Bass Player magazine every month, drooling over gear I couldn't afford, looking for faster and faster soloists (Jeff Berlin, Jaco, Patitucci, Haslip etc) etc but, as I have got older (I'm 44), I began to listen to the music a lot more and not the technique. As I got more and more involved in it, I began to even move away from the instruments themselves and started to listen to the music as pure expression. I began to realise that the instrument on which a piece is performed (and this is not genre specific) is important only in as much as the sound it creates defines the timbre of the notes played on it. If the music is good (subjective, I know), the instrument it is played on disappears!

An example would be 1960's big bands using the electric bass. The walking bass lines were often more of a 'ping, ping, ping' than a 'doom, doom, doom' and they stood out like a sore thumb; ugly and brash. The electric bass got a bad press in jazz for that and is still trying to live it down. As intruments and (probably more importantly, amps and speakers) have improved, this problem has all but disappeared and it is now perfectly credible for an electric bass to drive a big band in a sonically satisfying way. Now when I listen to a big band with an electric bass (I do occasionally play in one), the bass fits better in the overall sound and, consequently, disappears! I can now listen to the MUSIC the band are playing.

I guess that, where ERBs are concerned, I am still hearing the technology. That Manring track I mentioned, Selene, sounds like music, not just (just?) a bass player doing strange things with a bass. Am I making sense (I clearly lack ARGH's ability to express myself)?

I actually agree very much with what is being said about thios being early days for the ERB crowd. I actually think that the electric bass is still only now beginning to find a grudging acceptance within the 'serious' jazz fraternity (as opposed to the jazz/funk fusion circle). I only play electric bass but still lose gigs to double bass players with only rudimentary technique simply because they HAVE a double bass. If they were sh*t hot, I'd say fine but they ain't.

Anyway, to all you ERBists (I DO like that word), good luck, I wish you well and will be listening for many years to come. If any of you ever get your instruments over to Suffolk, I'll be in the front row.

[OldGit]

Bilbo
". If any of you ever get your instruments over to Suffolk, I'll be in the front row."
You aren't that far from Dood and his 7 string .....

Edited November 14, 2007 by OldGit

[Bilbo]

Say, Dood, where are you playing the big 7? I am in Felixstowe!

[tauzero]

My mainstay bass is a 4-string, but I have recently found a 5 which is the equivalent in playability (I've never settled with 5s before, not because of the extra string but because they have only been good players, not excellent ones). It's now my main gigging bass - I like being able to play patterns both across and up and down the neck.

I bought the 7 because I fancied experimenting. It may or may not get used in a formal band situation (I might finish up doing "Mustang Sally" with it in the covers band...) and it does get used at an open mic night (an opportunity to experiment in the company of others, though a little wasted on "Maggie's Farm"). I'll probably never do it justice, but I do derive pleasure from it. I don't want to be like some old bloke waving his stick [1] around and saying "it used to all be 4 strings round here, and with proper frets too".

[1] Not Stick

[Dood]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='88344' date='Nov 14 2007, 12:24 PM']Say, Dood, where are you playing the big 7? I am in Felixstowe![/quote]


Just in the process of getting a new band together, so am back 'off the road' temporarily.. but I'll advertise on MySpace when we are gonna tear up the countryside!

[mcgraham]

Been meaning to post a reply here for a bit, just to throw in my bit.

'The electric bass' is an instrument, 'bass' is a function that anything that can access the bass register can provide e.g. piano, euphonium, etc.

The range of the 'bass' function is somewhat up for debate but for the sake of argument say it typically ranges from as low as a low B to perhaps open G/5th fret D string(?)

The necessity inherent in fulfilling the 'bass' function is that you need to have access to and use that range of notes. Following on from that, 'the electric bass' need not and should not necessarily be limited to a function, however it would be appreciated that once you leave that register, you are no longer fulfilling the 'bass' function.

The ERB is very much like a piano in that it can access all/most registers, hence it's great for arranging, fulfilling different functions etc. BUT unlike the piano it is very difficult to hold down two very different functions at once (outside of tapping at least), making extra strings seem superfluous at various points, hence when you play low comments of 'why do you need all the higher strings' and when you play high 'why don't you just get a guitar'.

In short? My humble opinion is that the ERB is a different instrument, and as such should be treated as one, that it's not something to 'get' or 'not get', that such a question is akin to saxophone player asking a violinist to justify what they play. They may share similar construction and appearance but they are not the same.

Note: Not attacking the OP, I think it's a completely valid question, and this is my valid opinion.

Now... to bed!

Mark

EDIT: By the way Dood, your bass rocks!

Edited November 14, 2007 by mcgraham

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='ARGH' post='88188' date='Nov 14 2007, 12:23 AM']Agreed,If we all stayed the same,what fun would that be?[/quote]
+1

It'd be a very boring world, that's for sure..

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='dood' post='88512' date='Nov 14 2007, 04:59 PM']Just in the process of getting a new band together, so am back 'off the road' temporarily.. but I'll advertise on MySpace when we are gonna tear up the countryside![/quote]
What happened to your old band Dood - did you scare them off with your 7 stirng

[David Nimrod]

There's nothing wrong with ERB's - I know I haven't got the skill to play one!

But the most gut level satisfying bass lines have mostly been played on a '4'.

And there's something a bit 'look at me' about those wide necked monsters...

Maybe they just don't sit comfortably with my self deprecating personality ;-)

The bottom line has to be (as always) 'do whatever it takes to make a groove'

[queenofthedepths]

[quote name='David Nimrod' post='89021' date='Nov 15 2007, 05:01 PM']But the most gut level satisfying bass lines have mostly been played on a '4'.[/quote]

Absolutely right, but the key is in the word "mostly" - extra strings mean extra possibilities and once you get used to them, they're just as easy to play as a 4-string

[7string]

Agreed !!

There seems to be this theory that more strings = more difficult to play. I don't think this is true at all, it's just a matter of getting used to it. OK, the necks a bit wider, but that's about it.

As for the "there's something a bit 'look at me' about those wide necked monsters..." from David Nimrod I can fully understand that !! However, for me personally, that's not the case at all because I can't go out and play gigs (I don't even stand in front of the mirror with it...... OK, but only once or twice !!).

[queenofthedepths]

[quote name='7string' post='89068' date='Nov 15 2007, 06:36 PM']As for the "there's something a bit 'look at me' about those wide necked monsters..." from David Nimrod I can fully understand that !! However, for me personally, that's not the case at all because I can't go out and play gigs (I don't even stand in front of the mirror with it...... OK, but only once or twice !!).[/quote]

That's a tragic shame - I've only played 2 gigs with a 4-string... If having an ERB is going to make me look a bit more interesting for the crowd, why not?! Anything I can do which is a bit different should add to their experience

[Dood]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='88912' date='Nov 15 2007, 01:09 PM']What happened to your old band Dood - did you scare them off with your 7 stirng [/quote]


lol.. yes he he...

Actually, no not this time! Andy my guitarist (a 7 string player, incidentally lol) is touring with a band based in Northampton and also due to go out on the road with 70's Prog monsters, 'Budgie' I understand. Off to Aus. Lucky *&(*&!!!
My drummer Matt went on tour with THE Glenn Hughes. There's some awesome you-tube vids of him ripping round the kit with Glenn blasting out the vocals! So cool!

So that just left me to find something new to do ;o)

[OldGit]

[quote name='dood' post='89411' date='Nov 16 2007, 02:12 PM']lol.. yes he he...

Actually, no not this time! Andy my guitarist (a 7 string player, incidentally lol) is touring with a band based in Northampton and also due to go out on the road with 70's Prog monsters, 'Budgie' I understand. Off to Aus. Lucky *&(*&!!![/quote]

Small World I was chatting with Burke Shelly, Budgie bass player, last night and he was struggling to play my Shuker P5 a few weeks ago "I know how to work a Precision" he said then "er, it's got 5 strings ... and can I make the strap shorter?" (He's about 5' 3" )
He did a fine job on it though ..
Sadly no pixie dust was passed on so I'm still a numpty whilst he is still superb:
"Bass player/vocalist Burke Shelley is one of the truly great but underrated singers to emerge in the 70s. His delivery throughout this album is faultless and his bass playing is magnificent."

[cheddatom]

I haven't read every single post, so, sorry if I say something stupid!

I've read quite a few comments saying "you can't use an ERB in a band context" "people only use them for tapping/showing off" "you don't see an ERB at your local open mic night" etc. Well, I play a 6 string, (I don't know if that's counted as an ERB or not) and I take it to open mic nights with my guitarist. I like to play a lot of chords, which often involve the high C, and I like to play a lot of low groovey bass lines, which often involve the low B. The band i'm in is a 3 peice, and I use lots of effects, a bi-amp rig, and my extended range, to help fill out the sound. I didn't get a 6 string so that i'd have to use my left hand less either. Quite often i'm on the High C at the 24th fret. I still think i'm a bassist though.

If anyone's interested, there's a new song (fake smiles in the photograph)on my band's myspace (myspace.com/nologorock) where i'm playing 5 string bar chords in the chorus (not impressive, but effective use of ERB).