Pete Academy Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='652094' date='Nov 11 2009, 10:57 PM']Well I think we're still arguing at cross purposes here. Never mind.[/quote] You just don't get Victor, do you? There are good musicians, great musicians, amazing musicians. Then there are people like Victor. Another universe. We mortals can only imagine what it's like there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutToPlayJazz Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 (edited) Heh! Once again, we descend into Victa-bashing. Those of us who really understand Mr.Wooten know that if you look at his mastery of multiple techniques, he is, as Stanley Clarke himself commented, the most complete bass player on the planet. But I think that people still miss the point with him - Victor is all about pushing the boundaries of not only bass, but of music as an entirety. One particular track that stands out in my mind is the one on "Yin-Yang" where he actually sets music to a recording of his infant daughter talking "baby-talk." In terms of creativity, it's astounding that he could have found and made "music" from not only the vocal pitches, but also the speech/silence rhythms as well. It's utterly amazing & one of the most interesting pieces of music I've ever heard. He's a musician for us to aspire to and nothing less. ThisNameIsTaken, you should have worked for Pravda in the 1930's... "Dimitri Shostakovich - Lady MacBeth - [b][i]Chaos instead of music![/i][/b]" Edited November 11, 2009 by OutToPlayJazz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Pete Academy' post='652102' date='Nov 11 2009, 11:15 PM']You just don't get Victor, do you? There are good musicians, great musicians, amazing musicians. Then there are people like Victor. Another universe. We mortals can only imagine what it's like there.[/quote] No I do get that, honestly I do, but I don't think it puts him beyond criticism and I still think the double-thumbing stuff he does is the worst sound I've ever heard come out of a bass guitar and it shouldn't be allowed. But you don't "get" that, apparently. [quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='652115' date='Nov 11 2009, 11:30 PM']Heh! Once again, we descend into Victa-bashing.[/quote] I'm not "bashing" anyone, I think it's a fair criticism. And I've yet to hear anyone else in this thread actually say "I think you're wrong, I really like the sound of Wooten's double-thumbing at inhuman tempos, I don't care if there's no audible notes in there I just like the constant repeating string attack sound and I enjoy listening to it at length. I also sometimes stop in the street to listen to pneumatic drill operators". Nobody's said that because you all agree with me. Edited November 11, 2009 by thisnameistaken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutToPlayJazz Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Surprisingly enough, I love that side and all the sides to his playing. I think it's amazing & it encourages me to become a better and better bass player. If everything was meant to be pleasing to the ear, we'd all be working for Satan Cowell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosebass Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='650725' date='Nov 10 2009, 03:18 PM']I think we all understand the difference between music with a good bass guitar part and music for trade shows, right? Still, those trade show techniques are worth learning if you aspire to play at trade shows. Just don't do them in your band or they'll all think you're a twat.[/quote] +1 to that... Like I always say " if you are not in the groove you are w***ing" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='Prosebass' post='652131' date='Nov 11 2009, 11:49 PM']+1 to that... Like I always say " if you are not in the groove you are w***ing"[/quote] I already get picked on in my band for knowing a bit about music. If they found out I can actually play my instrument too I would never hear the end of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosebass Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 [quote name='Rasta' post='652028' date='Nov 11 2009, 09:40 PM']I/we love bass...... i personally love playing 3-4 notes of a real phat speaker rumbling belly popping dub that warbles a riddim that hypnotises the audience (oh...and the band) and nobody knows what it is that's gripping them and holding them together....that is until it drops out...then the riddim comes back in...that be the bass that gets ya together again and rinse up the pum pum. And well.... i equally love the fact that the likes of the mighty Jaco, Bootsy etc have taken the bass out there to space and back again...there is plenty of room for bass in space (there are no walls behind the sky )....dig - thanks god people get out there to space (talented!)...i wish i was an astronaut and not a space cadet (maybe practice) - I'll stick with my earthy 3-4 notes....that's my love and happy medium after all. As a random afterthought didn't that Whitened Stripes band have no bass player?...yet there biggest tune was that one with the b-line...go figure. Bass falls on those who feel it...he who knows it feels it...amen & more wine, one love[/quote] Well said that man --------------------- --------------------- ---3--5-55-3-5---- -5------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pricechris10 Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 WHERE IS BASS? My answer to the question is ..... It can be a complex or a simple bassline but if it carries the rythym and melody equally well it makes for awesome listening! SIMPLES! As for picking on individual players, that's just silly banter for people with limited ability or scope! My alternative answer is ..........WHERE YOU LEFT IT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Warmed by the Wooten dialogue above, I return to my previous point. IMO, the current form, shape and construction of the bass guitar inhibits further development of technique much beyond: * Playing some (severely attenuated) chords * Hitting harmonics * Percussive tapping and slapping I have no problem with people attempting to extend the boundaries of the instrument - I very much enjoy Craig Martini's highly musical and integrated work. But it seems to me that this 'extension' entails a struggle with the inherent limitations of the bass guitar. This, in turn, sometimes drives players into a complex, technique-driven style of playing which some find "unmusical". Just an observation, not a value judgment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='652024' date='Nov 11 2009, 09:36 PM']sections of unlistenable w***ery on there though. To be expected really, when the record was aimed squarely at the [b]fawning bass player market[/b].[/quote] And quite a big market that is...... And he as any other full time Muso/business likes to make money. Thumb work is his nine to five [with some overtime throwm in] Maybe working at Kentucky Fried Chicken dont appeal to him. There is some stunning Fretless stuff from VW out there. That seems to get missed for some reason or other.[In this country anyway] More to him than your quoted one album and 'you tube'/trade show Videos. Its all opions of course, But like him or hate him, there is no denying his superb Musicianship. Garry Edited November 12, 2009 by lowdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raslee Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Prosebass' post='652150' date='Nov 12 2009, 12:19 AM']Well said that man --------------------- --------------------- ---3--5-55-3-5---- -5------------------- [/quote] Why thank you...your tab shows 3 notes-superb!, Well, i read some crap on this thread to be honest. So some tongue in cheek philosophy underpinned by a real message occasionally is my way....did far too much debate at uni and found that all great debates end back where it started albeit with decisions, plans and answers oh and more debate......for this debate i seem to see its just many opinions but fundamentally its all BASS right?....even jumping on the strings like Jaco did is playing on the bass i feel! I am of course still half asleep and talking bollocks as usual Edited November 12, 2009 by Rasta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 In jazz the bass is treated as an equal part of a band - say a quartet - yes it has its functional role to play but it's also free to double the melody, play a counterpoint line, walk, solo, or drop out all together! And musically you can bet the bassist has just as much theory knowledge, sight reading ability, compositonal talent (see Dave Holland / Marcus Miller et al) as the lead soloist, and while he / she might not play chords - they can certainly hear what chord is what and make a note choice accordingly. But that's jazz for you - it's bloody hard to play well etc etc - other musical style don't always allow so many possibilities. So in a nutshel: bass is equal to any or all other instruments in a musical situation that allows it to be. Saying that Another One Bites the Dust rocked plenty of stadiums with just a bass and drum groove and Freddy hollering over the top... In terms of the bass' technical limitations - well there's always going to be some new kid who's pushing it way beyond the rest of the pack - see Hadrien Feraud etc - and that's great and inspiring from a technique point of view - but everyday use of really OTT playing is so limited you're better off getting the fundamentals together (er like good TIMING!) than learning an epic tapping party piece (learn that as well - just do it later). Like some have said here already for me it's about sound and soul and personality in the music - its not about the bass it's about the music - good music with some good bass in is always nice though - but just good bass without good music around it... that's not good M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='652076' date='Nov 11 2009, 10:36 PM']Well, he does the clinics, and he tours with Stanley Clarke and Marcus Miller - excuse me if I assume that that's another gig where the audience is 100% bass players but I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption given that nobody else in the world would know who they are. He's got the Flecktones gig I suppose, but is there anything else he does where the music comes first? It seems his 'day job' is more about showing off his chops than being especially musical.[/quote] FYI the Flectones have won around 9 Grammy Awards and regualrly play stadiums across the US - they are way more mainstream over there than over here - Wooten is way better known as well - these guys, including Vic, aren't some obscure band only appreciated by musos - they sell lots of records and play big show all over the place (they're in London next week and both their shows have sold out). Even your previous point is slightly redundant as many, many people who don't PLAY bass still love to listen to it - how do you explain Level 42's success - likewise Stanley Clarke and MM - both have a big bass following but ARE listened to by plenty of non-players. Lastly - Wooten is a musician first and a bassist second - the guy is amazing and can do more with one note than most can do with 100 - sure he can play a lot of notes but he has soul, amazing timing and a great sense of melody and groove - I've listened to him for the best part of 18 years now and he continues to sound fresh, relevant and funky - and is one of the best in the pocket (players (when he wants to be) around. listen here [attachment=36155:1_01_Bil_Mon.mp3] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosebass Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 [quote name='Rasta' post='652252' date='Nov 12 2009, 08:17 AM']Why thank you...your tab shows 3 notes-superb!, Well, i read some crap on this thread to be honest. So some tongue in cheek philosophy underpinned by a real message occasionally is my way....did far too much debate at uni and found that all great debates end back where it started albeit with decisions, plans and answers oh and more debate......for this debate i seem to see its just many opinions but fundamentally its all BASS right?....even jumping on the strings like Jaco did is playing on the bass i feel! I am of course still half asleep and talking bollocks as usual [/quote] Indeed......(not the bollox bit ) I think having to explain why something is good in some ways belittles it. I have never been a fan of slap, double thumbing whatever you want to call it. Doesn't mean it hasn't got a place for others to enjoy. For me dance music has done more for bass than many 'virtuoso' players who churn out bass for bassists and then only of a certain ilk. Nobody has mentioned Prodigy, Chemical Brothers, Propellerheads, Armand Van Helden, MAW, Lamb, Full Intention, all at the forefront of pushing bass in music. So what if some of them use sequencers / keyboards its all lower register stuff. Good bass doesn't necessary have to be 5 strings on a fancy build played at 200 notes a minute. Bass is a wide church from dub to self indulgent w***ing ? As for its future it will carry on in the way it has done over the last decade. Thankfully more up front in the mix now thanks to dance and indie bands pushing it up there, not some soloist or trade show fiddler, they only appeal to other bassists. I know I'll get some flak from this but just ask any non bassist to name 5 bass players ? The replies you are likely to get are 'Sting' , 'that guy in Level 42' , 'Him in Rush', 'Paul McCartney' , and not forgetting 'Sid Viscious' From a younger audience maybe 'Mike Dirnt' , 'Flea' I think the question is a little like asking 'where is music ?' Its where you want it to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 To the people who are still replying to tell me what a good bass player Victor is, please read the 'king thread. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkypenguin Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 in answer to the original question, i think the idea of boundaries is what is most detrimental to the progression of bass technique and indeed the evolution of the role of the bass guitar. as (i think!) has been mentioned, most people listening to music with a bass as part of the ensemble don't know the first thing about music. the bass, at present, has to fulfill a particular role in such music (i.e. laying down the bottom end). with the current generation of producers and songwriters creating essentially the same sort of music over and over again, the basses role will not change. IMHO the real progression in the bass field can be made in the Jazz and particularly the classical idioms, with wind bands and perhaps even orchestras. its not unknown for the bass to be featured with classical ensembles (see Patitucci's theme and variations for 6 string bass and strings), and i think its in these types of ensembles that the much-derided multi-finger techniques may perhaps find a more valid application. They are part of the bass repertoire/vocabulary and as such are as valid and as deserving of respect as any other. All the talk about bass not having the voice to be a solo instrument is, with respect, being quite short sighted. we have the range and dynamic ability to play as soloists, especially with sensitive accompaniment from discerning musicians. this may help get my point across. the Tuba in the brass band and orchestral worlds used to be viewed in exactly the same way (should just be the bottom/not a solo instrument) that view has now changed somewhat. check these out. its as accomplished solo playing as ive seen from any sax, violin or trumpet player [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHMyrhilkdo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHMyrhilkdo[/url] [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYOsNp4O7AU&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYOsNp4O7AU...feature=related[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubinga5 Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) its funny how my thread 'Where is Bass' seems to have brought up Victor's name...it seems to me he is at the forefront of electric bass (im sure there are others) taking the instrument to it limits(or maybe there is alot more)....at the end of the day it will allways come back to music no matter how many techniques you use...I for one know Victor is an incredibly musical bass player....and he can groove with the best in the world...people who dont open there eyes, think its all chops... Like many on here im sure...i do prefer much simpler players like Meshell, her appeal for me has never been her wealth of technical ability..its her touch and feel on he bass.and matched with a fantastic sense of harmony and musical construction....fxxxin awsome....thing is Victor can do this too...still wouldnt play 'God Fear Money' like Meshell can though... The bottom line for me is, you dont need loads or bass skills to be a GREAT...note selection, note placement, being aware of the music, and having a character all of your own..thats what makes you a good bassist...IMO............Just look at Zender!!!! "ive come to my technical plateau,where do i go from here" go back to the music, its where you should have started from...i heard that once, those were my thoughts.. Well said Rasta..Dan said you were a great bass player...we gonna hook up soon bro?? Edited November 14, 2009 by bubinga5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigmartini Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 [quote name='skankdelvar' post='652191' date='Nov 12 2009, 01:15 AM']I have no problem with people attempting to extend the boundaries of the instrument - I very much enjoy Craig Martini's highly musical and integrated work.[/quote] Wow!!! Thank you very much! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeBrownBass Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) Heres the bass. Edited November 14, 2009 by jake_tenfloors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcro Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) Where is bass and where can it go? What do do now that you've reached that technical plateau? Well, I think bass is suffering from the historical forces of pop/rock etc., and how that in turn has taken over a huge part of "western" culture. Cast your minds back to recordings by Cream. Three musicians playing their socks off and very much equal contributors to the whole. What happens at the end of "Crossroads" (with it's storming bass line). Some transaltantic announcer pops up with "Eric Clapton, please; vocals." Huh, he got recognition for that? See what I mean. Jump forward 40 years and consider "Later with Jools Holland" and the Jonathan Ross show. Are you constantly driven mad by the producer switching cameras back and fore to home in on the lead guitar, then the drums, then the keyboards, then the backing singer. We're lucky if we get a fleeting chance to see tha bass player - usually the quiet man at the back. Even if "Sting" is playing and holding centre stage, there's little camera focus on his bass playing. Yes, bass is still in the shadows. Yes, I would like somebody to push the boundaries (I don't have a problem with anyone pushong the boundaries), but I don't think the super bass technicians either help or hinder the cause. While demonstrating such virtuosity, they're only appealing to a knowledgeable minority. Where is the performance going to get a hearing? Probably not on TV or radio. Doddy's right, there are no bass heroes in modern mainstream music. I'm fully in agreement with Doddy's opinion - Why shouldn't the Bass be used as a lead or solo instrument? Just because people are currently conditioned into believing that the bass just plays riffs and chugs along on the bottom doesn't mean it should stay there. Remember...the guitar wasn't always the predominant lead/solo instrument. It's still common parlance to refer to a lead guitar. So why not lead bass. Rename that 6-string thing a treble guitar. Steal the guitarists clothes - see that link to Flea playing the bass before the Lakers v Rockets game. Here's the link - it's sheer indulgence, especially from 1.05 onwards - [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGuEagHDL9M&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGuEagHDL9M...feature=related[/url] [i]Not bad for a 35 year old reconditioned bass stack. No idea how old Flea is.[/i] There are thousands of other lines/themes/jingles to be stolen, appropriated or tunes re-arranged. Bass led trios/groups/bands, Twin bass bands; one long scale the other short-scale. Writing songs with stand out bass lines. I think the answer is in the music. Go there. PS. Treble guitarists not included. Balcro. Edited November 14, 2009 by Balcro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubinga5 Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 [quote name='jake_tenfloors' post='654701' date='Nov 14 2009, 06:12 PM'] Heres the bass.[/quote]WOW.. just an amazing musician..its only until you see him deconstruct his playing, do you see how good Victor is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithless Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Bubinga, believe me, that vid is just a top of the iceberg, well, in fact, it [b]doesn't[/b] tell a thing about Victor's music understanding - check his "Groove Workshop" dvd - it's not that kinda [i]slappo'tappo[/i] thingy you'd expect - Victor talks and shows [i]things[/i], you would never think about.. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raslee Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Faithless' post='655112' date='Nov 15 2009, 12:26 PM']Bubinga, believe me, that vid is just a top of the iceberg, well, in fact, it [b]doesn't[/b] tell a thing about Victor's music understanding - check his "Groove Workshop" dvd - it's not that kinda [i]slappo'tappo[/i] thingy you'd expect - Victor talks and shows [i]things[/i], you would never think about..[/quote] +1 for the Groove Workshop DVD...i think its the only bass vid i've stayed awake for (both of them) - I love Victors spirituality underpinning his outlook on playing bass - i really get with that playing reggae music (Jah works ), i don't know much about theory and technique - i can't play that technical either...not that it matters....but the spirit is there! Positive Vibrations - Bob Marley & the Wailers....It has a one note (ish) bass solo at about 3mins & 58secs....beautiful [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgeGsr9HZ_4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgeGsr9HZ_4[/url] The live version on the Babylon by bus albums sounds better! Edited November 15, 2009 by Rasta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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