niceguyhomer Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Since taking up the hallowed instrument about 5 years ago, I've mostly played in 3 or 4 piece bands with just guitar and drums to contend with. I used to have no problem getting a good sound and punching through the mix but since I joined a six piece band, I'm finding it hard work. There's a loud drummer, keyboards, guitarist and violinist in my band and today at rehearsal, the guitarist, drummer and me were having a jam and I was absolutely loving my sound. Then the violinist and keyboard player arrived and when we began to rehearse, my sound was all to pot and I spent the rest of the afternoon knob twiddling. I could hear myself ok but it wasn't right to my ears - a bit undefined and lacking in punch. We play in a large room which is actually a theatre with a big hollow stage if that's any help. Anyone got any ideas how to approach getting my sound right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 There's only so much room in the tonal spectrum so if your guitarist and keys payer have a lot of bass/low mid in their sound there will be less room for you. If your keys player plays big left hand chords that will use up the space too. So ... Ask them nicely if they can thin their sound to a rediculous extent then gradually bring the bass and low mids in 'til it sounds OK. Also I suspect a GRAMMA pad would help, especially in a theatre with a boomy wooden stage - or even a GRAMMA pad each... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Really don't want a fight with the guitar and keys can be hardwork as well, altho the latter in terms of the frequencies rather than a gtr who just plays loud... Personally, I think you need the guys to have a degree of taste where they drop in and out of the mix with a good use of dynnamics..and not be scared of doing this. It is such a hard lesson for a guitard to learn. Bass and drums should really carry the song so it sounds good on it own..the rest of the instruments are dressing to a degree. I think his approach makes it really easy to get a band mix and sound pretty easily. If the keys are playing a bass line, you wouldn't try and compete with it... you'd do something else.. If people don't get this, they should be told... The benefit should be to the band..all else, is secondary, IMO... As for my sound I run my amps the same everytime..as I am now happy with this...and just add the mid on the bass to cut through. It is better if there is room in the mix in the 1st place without having to force it.. One of my 'dep' gigs is with 2 gtrs and a sax amongst others and they both know how to give each other space which is good...as they wouldn't get each others gigs otherwise.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 [quote name='JTUK' post='610225' date='Sep 27 2009, 07:13 PM']Bass and drums should really carry the song so it sounds good on it own..the rest of the instruments are dressing to a degree.[/quote] That's the spirit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 If it was me Al, I'd be making the sound nice and punchy. On a hollow stage it'll probably be a bit boomy, so I'd be boosting the mids and some top end, and maybe backing the bottom end off a tiny bit. Pretty much my normal tone then !! Can't wait to see your new band mate!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreeneKing Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I think it's also important to get someone out front to check too Alan. I'm noticing how directional bass is at the mo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironside1966 Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Get the music right and it will sort its self out If the keyboard player is playing different bass parts to you or even octave bass it can sound muddy it’s all about orchestration playing close intervals in low registers can sound muddy and ideally need to be an octave apart. Eg if the piano player plays the rout of a E miner and you play the g above or any note close it sounds muddy even if it’s in the cord Try it with a piano play Root and 3rd on the lower keys it sounds muddy now play a tenth it sounds clear Bit of waffle but I hope you get my meaning 2nd option Less bass more mid or less bass on the keys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Or you could ask them to play half chords .. I sometimes play with a guitarist who is really a solo acoustic player. When he started playing electric he continued to play full 6 string chords with ringing open low E's etc. No one told him not to Once I got him trained to play three and four note chords, high inversions, picked arpeggios, etc, leaving the bottom to me, it all got a lot better... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateybass Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 (edited) Playing in big bands can be problematic when trying to fit lots of frequencies into a finite bandwidth. It's not always a good idea to ask the other members to change their parts to suit you... you're only a bass player after all Lots of things you can try... A: Try decoupling the cab from the stage floor... if it has castors that'll do the trick, if not, try a couple of beer crates or something. Don't place your cab too close to a wall to avoid the bass frequencies hugging the walls. B: If you have more than one pick-up on your bass, try using the bridge pup only and dialing in your sound with that. Otherwise try using both together a la Jazz bass stylee. C: Don't use too much bottom end on your eq... Gene Simmons once said that to cut through you need more mid... like a chainsaw E: Where's D gone? D: Oh there you were all the time. F: Wear ear plugs... Elacin ear plugs really make the bass easier to hear through the mix (meaning you can hear your sound much more clearly and cleanly without having to turn up) and save your ears from old age deafness. Only about £15 and wouldn't play without them now. Hope that helps. Edited September 28, 2009 by Mateybass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Reducing the volume of the onstage mix can sometimes work wonders. I was in a band with a very very loud drummer once, completely inappropriate for the style of music we were playing. When we managed to get him to play more softly the whole band tightened up because we could all hear each other so much better. But it was futile trying to get him to play like that for more than a song in the end so I left the band. Having said that, in my last band we sometimes played very very reflective venues and turned down to almost bedroom levels of volume with the result that the mix may have been reverbing less but fell apart completely because there wasn't enough volume for some instruments to project across the stage. Our onstage volume was normally dictated by the drums and the vocals coming out of the wedges (which usually I and the guitarist got full in the face because the stages were too small for the singers to hear on-axis). So...dunno really. I guess it depends on the venue. Usually I'd do the same as Rayman and see where it left things. Having sweepable mids helps though, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niceguyhomer Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 Some good advice fellas and thanks for it... I think I'll have to wait a few weeks before telling the others to turn down / play differently most of them have been doing it for a living for a long time and as someone said, I'm just the bassist I have been boosting the mids a bit but think I have to be a bit bolder with 'em - maybe have to invest in a Gramma pad methinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreeneKing Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Much cheaper than the pad itself Alan is if you just buy the two Auralex foam strips and use the amp itself at the 'plywood board' that costs another £30 odd Boost them mids all the way, you know it makes sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPJ Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 [quote name='GreeneKing' post='610570' date='Sep 28 2009, 09:02 AM']Much cheaper than the pad itself Alan is if you just buy the two Auralex foam strips and use the amp itself at the 'plywood board' that costs another £30 odd Boost them mids all the way, you know it makes sense [/quote] +1 You can get individual ones [url="http://www.studiospares.com/Sound-Insulation/Auralex-Platfoam-X1-Piece/invt/461330"]on this site[/url]. +1 on high quality ear plugs as well. Doc's Pro Plugs are good, Killnoise etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Get a Stingray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niceguyhomer Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 The strips look like a good option. I know I'm thick but I don't understand what this means Pedro... [quote name='GreeneKing' post='610570' date='Sep 28 2009, 09:02 AM']... and use the amp itself at the 'plywood board' that costs another £30 odd [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 [quote name='niceguyhomer' post='610647' date='Sep 28 2009, 10:46 AM']The strips look like a good option. I know I'm thick but I don't understand what this means Pedro...[/quote] My guess is "at" is a typo and should read "as" .. In other words do without the plywood board the strips are stuck to. I like mine, and its board, box and handle However in our band we also have some LIDL gardeners' kneeling pads that some kit goes on on particularly boomy stages. £2 each Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Its about frequecy mixing the band. All the members of the band have a 'sound' that they like to practice with and show off their lovely gear with to their mates. This is a huge wide frequency sound (esp for keys and overdriven/distorted guitar) that can really maximise the impact of their instrument. They all turn up to rehearse and use this same sound or a variation of. Result: no space for any other instruments, everything turns to a volume war or mud. Solution, give everyone a frequency range or two to stay in, so guitars are upper mids, keys lower mids and extreme highs, bass is bass and middly mids. Carve that out at their amp so no amount of fx pedal jiggerypokery can then change it. BTW Vox gets absolute volume precedent, always! Result - they will bitch and moan at you. Solution to bitching and moaning - sack them or leave, OR record the band in situ with their sounds their way, then again with them your way ( a zoom H2 is perfect for this). Take the resultant mixes around to everyone and their partners and friends and play them back on their stereos and ask them to say which they prefer - do this a couple of weeks later and do it double blind. They will always (and I mean always) prefer the frequency mixed version cos it always sounds better. You can hear the individual parts and nothing is fighting anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreeneKing Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Yes that's right Alan. You can buy a board with two strips of foam underneath and sit your cabs on it. Or you can just stick the cab straight onto the two foam strips. Less to carry, cheaper, more compact but slightly more fiddly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spinynorman Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 As your sound is ok playing with guitar and drums, I bet your problem is the keyboard. So you can try all this negotiation about frequency ranges, or you can amputate his left arm with an axe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niceguyhomer Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 [quote name='spinynorman' post='610949' date='Sep 28 2009, 04:11 PM']As your sound is ok playing with guitar and drums, I bet your problem is the keyboard. So you can try all this negotiation about frequency ranges, or you can amputate his left arm with an axe.[/quote] At last a sensible suggestion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrcrow Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 [quote name='spinynorman' post='610949' date='Sep 28 2009, 04:11 PM']As your sound is ok playing with guitar and drums, I bet your problem is the keyboard. So you can try all this negotiation about frequency ranges, or you can amputate his left arm with an axe.[/quote] exactly...and thank your lucky stars it isnt a synth...or is it i hate hate hate synths with their stupid sounds set for minus an octave and big left hand dull chord/arpeggio playing its even worse with an organ...doh!!! the keyboard needs to have a line around C below middle C on the keyboard and told to keep above that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niceguyhomer Posted September 29, 2009 Author Share Posted September 29, 2009 Yeh, the synth has a lot to do with it TBH but being the newbie, and given that he is a seasoned professional I don't feel inclined to say anything to him just yet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Let a piano player loose on a keyboard with loads of sounds is dangerous as they can't resist playing low with their left hand..which is right in your space... I am maing the distinction between keyboard players and piano players here Two things...he might not like the way you hold down the low end so is 'helping' out...or he isn't that 'seasoned' to know he is treading on someone else's toes to the detrement of the band sound. If you think he is playing low notes that compete with yours, ask him why he does it... he might not even realise.. I think youare going to have to deal with this... Canvass the other guys and start by asking them why they think you are having trouble being heard or cutting through.. Be diplomatic in the 1st instance though until you know it isn't your problem and they agree with the keyboards being there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironside1966 Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 A Jaco type sound can cut through the mix. I would start with the amp EQ flat and play on the back PU then just do minnor tweaks. there is probely no room for a big fat sound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 [quote name='niceguyhomer' post='611740' date='Sep 29 2009, 10:53 AM']Yeh, the synth has a lot to do with it TBH but being the newbie, and given that he is a seasoned professional I don't feel inclined to say anything to him just yet... [/quote] An unnamed Barefacedite had some fun recently with a seasoned semi-professional keyboardist doubling all his basslines (which made it really hard to hear his bass but he couldn't work out why) and then denying doing it even after said bassist stopped playing and started miming yet the bassline continued (with a keyboardy tone). You couldn't make it up! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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