Bass Solo accompaniment

[Major-Minor]

Hands up boys and girls if you recognise this scenario:

You're depping on a jazz gig - you know one of the guys vaguely, but the rest are just names you have heard on the local circuit. You get set up, grab a quick pint, and the bandleader calls "Oleo" in Bb. "That ok for you, Mr Bassman ? It's just Rhythm Changes." "No probs" you say and then comes the count. Intro,tune, solos and then B'leader looks at you and mouths "Bass solo ?". You nod and then its spotlight on bass. But the pianist and drummer and guitarist all keep playing, and at the same level as for the sax solo. You think "Hey guys come on, let me be heard " - but somehow you get to the end of the solo - tune, ending and out.
You start to say "Hey guys, look, when i take a solo...." but B'leader has already called the next tune - and it's one you are only familiar with from a CD you heard some time ago. Always willing to have a go at something new, you accept the challenge and then remember that this tune has an awkward sequence - extra bars here and there - some off the wall chords in the middle 8 - but it's too late to ask the pianist - it's count in, intro and your off...... After the tune and sax solo, the B'leader says" bass solo" - "Oh god (you think), I haven't even got to grips with the sequence yet ....... " and then the bloody drummer just STOPS playing..... and the pianist and guitarist too..... you are all on your own, floundering around.... NO HELP FROM ANYBODY..... OK put in some syncopations and cross-rhythms - that should sound like I know what I'm doing... but then you lose where "one" is and it's all falling apart..... the band come back in but all over the place.... nobody knows where "one" is .. somehow it gets back on track - tune, ending and out. PHEW!

OK - hands down - I see quite a few of you have had this sort of experience. It seems to be quite common.

So what do we do ?
Write out a list of instructions for how we like our bass solos to be accompanied ? I doubt that that would go down too well with other jazzers.
Insist on talking it all through before playing ?..... how often can you make that happen ?

In an ideal world we would have a rehearsal or at least a discussion before playing ... but in these cash strapped times, jazz rehearsals are pretty rare.

I'm lucky enough to play quite regularly with 2 other guys (pno/drs) and we have spent some time just talking about how we like to work as a team. And their accompaniment of bass my solos is always to my liking. The drummer gives me a solid but subtle rhythmic bed to work on - the pianist just hints at the chords, making sure I know where the modulations and cadence points are. This frees me up to be creative - I can try cross rhythms without worrying about "losing it". I can take the harmonic structure "out" and know I will always be pointed back "in". At the same time, the boys will go with me if I build to a climax, and will set up a dialogue with me if it's appropriate.

My view is this:
The bass player is as entitled to a decent, thoughtful accompaniment as any other player. And if the drummer just STOPS every time you take a solo, tell him just what you really think !!
Similarly, a drum solo can be accompanied by the other players - although common practise is to leave the drummer to it. But you would be surprised just how many drummers really like having a riff or groove under their solos.

OK boys and girls - homework today is to tell me your experiences with bass soloing in a jazz / blues / roots context.

The Major

[OldGit]

The sticking plaster answer is turn yourself up in the first instance and bluff it in the second by creating your own audible "one" once you realise you are lost. or just stop dead and count it it ... followed by a word to the band after the gig to express your preference .. if you can say "like the 1958 Jimmy Dorsey version recorded at Carnegie Hall, Decca 878876/b " they may know it ...

But deps are one offs and you only get that sort of understanding from playing regularly with people ..

or say no to solos when you don't know what they are going to do.

Edited July 2, 2009 by OldGit

[Guest subaudio]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='530392' date='Jul 2 2009, 11:20 AM']Hands up boys and girls if you recognise this scenario:

You're depping on a jazz gig - you know one of the guys vaguely, but the rest are just names you have heard on the local circuit. You get set up, grab a quick pint, and the bandleader calls "Oleo" in Bb. "That ok for you, Mr Bassman ? It's just Rhythm Changes." "No probs" you say and then comes the count. Intro,tune, solos and then B'leader looks at you and mouths "Bass solo ?". You nod and then its spotlight on bass. But the pianist and drummer and guitarist all keep playing, and at the same level as for the sax solo. You think "Hey guys come on, let me be heard " - but somehow you get to the end of the solo - tune, ending and out.
You start to say "Hey guys, look, when i take a solo...." but B'leader has already called the next tune - and it's one you are only familiar with from a CD you heard some time ago. Always willing to have a go at something new, you accept the challenge and then remember that this tune has an awkward sequence - extra bars here and there - some off the wall chords in the middle 8 - but it's too late to ask the pianist - it's count in, intro and your off...... After the tune and sax solo, the B'leader says" bass solo" - "Oh god (you think), I haven't even got to grips with the sequence yet ....... " and then the bloody drummer just STOPS playing..... and the pianist and guitarist too..... you are all on your own, floundering around.... NO HELP FROM ANYBODY..... OK put in some syncopations and cross-rhythms - that should sound like I know what I'm doing... but then you lose where "one" is and it's all falling apart..... the band come back in but all over the place.... nobody knows where "one" is .. somehow it gets back on track - tune, ending and out. PHEW!

OK - hands down - I see quite a few of you have had this sort of experience. It seems to be quite common.

So what do we do ?
Write out a list of instructions for how we like our bass solos to be accompanied ? I doubt that that would go down too well with other jazzers.
Insist on talking it all through before playing ?..... how often can you make that happen ?

In an ideal world we would have a rehearsal or at least a discussion before playing ... but in these cash strapped times, jazz rehearsals are pretty rare.

I'm lucky enough to play quite regularly with 2 other guys (pno/drs) and we have spent some time just talking about how we like to work as a team. And their accompaniment of bass my solos is always to my liking. The drummer gives me a solid but subtle rhythmic bed to work on - the pianist just hints at the chords, making sure I know where the modulations and cadence points are. This frees me up to be creative - I can try cross rhythms without worrying about "losing it". I can take the harmonic structure "out" and know I will always be pointed back "in". At the same time, the boys will go with me if I build to a climax, and will set up a dialogue with me if it's appropriate.

My view is this:
The bass player is as entitled to a decent, thoughtful accompaniment as any other player. And if the drummer just STOPS every time you take a solo, tell him just what you really think !!
Similarly, a drum solo can be accompanied by the other players - although common practise is to leave the drummer to it. But you would be surprised just how many drummers really like having a riff or groove under their solos.

OK boys and girls - homework today is to tell me your experiences with bass soloing in a jazz / blues / roots context.

The Major[/quote]

I can only offer questions I'm afraid as I am just limbering up to dive into the world of Jazz for the first time, when things do fall apart how forgiving is the band/leader on the occasions where there has been no rehearsal etc, is it generally and accepted part of improvising and not having the capability to rehearse for one off gigs?

As someone with no experience of playing Jazz this post is a fascinating glimpse into the players side of a jazz gig, so many thanks for that.

[endorka]

I recognise this. Part of the problem I have is that while I find it easy enough to identify and point out bad bass solo accompaniment practices (e.g guitarist playing root position chords on the downbeat of every bar), I find it harder to describe what I think are good practices. In truth I'm not really sure, I just know that some people seem able to accompany my bass solos without me being really consciously aware that they are even there, unless I want them to contribute more, and the good ones seem to intuitively know when I want this.

In general, I prefer no accompaniment to bad accompaniment.

Jennifer

[AdamWoodBass]

[quote name='subaudio' post='530602' date='Jul 2 2009, 01:39 PM']I can only offer questions I'm afraid as I am just limbering up to dive into the world of Jazz for the first time, when things do fall apart how forgiving is the band/leader on the occasions where there has been no rehearsal etc, is it generally and accepted part of improvising and not having the capability to rehearse for one off gigs?

As someone with no experience of playing Jazz this post is a fascinating glimpse into the players side of a jazz gig, so many thanks for that.[/quote]

Usually that depends on the band leader's ego. I've done pleanty of gigs where the rest of the band have just fallen apart and I'm the only person still hammering out the groove hoping that someone will realise whats gone wrong and catch up to me. For most parts try to gauge the level of the musicians you're playing with. For example theres a drummer I play with some times and he's just well... terrible! He has no sense of groove and or rhythm and sometimes he'll start doing twiddly stuff that he has nowhere near the technical ability to pull off right slap in the middle of someones solo which is just painful to watch/listen to. My solution to this problem is that I basically do his job for him and take full responsibilty for the rhythm section. I just play a nice simple groove but really hammer it out so everyone knows where "one" is. At the end of the day this drummer always manages to drift off into his own little world not listening to the band at all and missing every single que there is, the worst is when we've all come to a nice gentle ral to end the tune on a lush major 7th and he's totally oblivious and still hammering out his own groove totally destryoing the end of the tune! Oh well what can you do except do your job?!

[bassace]

With my regular band, a 7-piece Chicago mainstream band - there are so many musicians to take solos that I don't get many and it doesn't bother me unduly, after all I'm part of the engine room. I'll get a half thrown at me sometimes and I'll take two choruses in the final barnstormer. I'll pick up the bass and walk it right to the front of the stage so the others know what's happenng. Otherwise all the others know what to do; if it's slow it's usually unaccompanied with a hint of drums and if it's up-tempo the hihat usually rides with me. the piano can nurdle around a bit if he wants to but rhythm from the guitar is a no no. We once had a piano dep who played right over my solo and I had to tell him to SHUT UP.

If I'm depping I always have a chat with whoever's the boss re bass solos - what does he want to do about them? I don't usually want too many at all, unless it's a trio and I'm needed to pull my weight. Always the same, a hint of drums and/or piano underneath the solo and throw anything at me. If I don't know the chords I shouldn't be playing in the first place.

[BassBus]

Major, your scenario sounds as if it comes from poor leadership on the part of the B'leader (I love that description). In an ideal world the leader should check with everyone to see how they like to be accompanied, but as AdamWoodBass said that depends on the b'leader's ego.

I once played with a drummer who hammered away at his kit regardless. I asked gently if he could keep off his snare during bass solos. Next tune? You guessed it, same as before. Probably the best drummer I played with in that band was a 17 year old. Really sensitive playing and listened. Unfortunately he's away to music college in September.

I don't know what the answer is. When you are new in a band you don't want to rock the boat by laying down the law. Then again when you're established in the band b'leader might go all huffy if you try to make your feelings felt.

Edited July 2, 2009 by BassBus

[jakenewmanbass]

I will not play a note (but keep the changes going in my head) they will eventually look at you expectantly at which point I make a 'cut throat' sign (slice hand across throat) And I join the sequence at wherever they shut up. I like to solo unaccompanied apart from the most sensitive players. My time is like a train and the changes are always audible in what I do so they will be in no doubt as to where I am.
With players I know well they all know what I want and the good ones can provide it.
I've said this on here before but it's worth repeating:
Billy Higgins famously said...

"You're not supposed to rape the drums, you should make love to them, All the best horn players listen to the bass all the time so you're not supposed to drown it out".

Now we have to compete with sax through PA and amplified keyboards too, I have, for lots of my working life, been told to turn up, I always say emphatically "NO, you turn down"
Incidentally MM, I lived and worked as a pro in Manchester from '92 to '05 so there's a good chance I'll have been on the stand with the guys you're referring to.
Jake

Edited July 2, 2009 by jakesbass

[Major-Minor]

Thanks for the replies guys and gals - I didn't expect so many so soon. i hope we get a few more - it's good to hear every bodies experiences.

Bandleaders can vary hugely (I've done my fair share), but the best are those who encourage and nurture you without accepting sloppy playing. A good jazz gig needs friendly camaraderie, not an oppressive regime.

One very well known UK sax player made me feel very uncomfortable before the gig (no rehearsal) when I told him I spent most of my time in a symphony orch. This is perhaps going off topic - but the point needs to be made that there is a lot of discrimination in the jazz world against what it sees as outsiders. Luckily I was able to "prove" myself by the end of the gig and it was all back slapping and jolly. But I was made to sweat - you DO KNOW "A Well Known Jazz Standard" DON'T YOU ?
".......er yes I think so " (trembling) . And dirty looks if I got it slightly wrong first time round the sequence.

You can sometimes be made to feel foolish if you don't know every tune in the book. Like others, I carry some Real Books with me, but there's always some tune they want to do that's not in there.

Back to TOPIC:
Jennifer is right - the best accompaniments are those that you don't notice. But also sometimes it's quite refreshing when the guys build the tension with you.

And AdamWoodBass has had the same experience as me - drummers who are not even on the same planet as the rest of the band.

And don't you feel you've let yourself down when you feel you need to say NO to the chance of a solo ?
Playing solos is what I look forward to on a jazz gig (what does that say about MY ego?) and I try to say YES every time.
Maybe towards the end of the gig, I sometimes feel knackered (if playing DB) and refuse solos just because I've run out of steam. Time to let the drummer play his extended solo thrash ?!

The Major

[jakenewmanbass]

Personally I don't really want to do more than a couple of solos per gig.

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='530744' date='Jul 2 2009, 03:47 PM']I will not play a note (but keep the changes going in my head) they will eventually look at you expectantly at which point I make a 'cut throat' sign (slice hand across throat) And I join the sequence at wherever they shut up. I like to solo unaccompanied apart from the most sensitive players. My time is like a train and the changes are always audible in what I do so they will be in no doubt as to where I am.
With players I know well they all know what I want and the good ones can provide it.
I've said this on here before but it's worth repeating:
Billy Higgins famously said...

"You're not supposed to rape the drums, you should make love to them, All the best horn players listen to the bass all the time so you're not supposed to drown it out".

Now we have to compete with sax through PA and amplified keyboards too, I have, for lots of my working life, been told to turn up, I always say emphatically "NO, you turn down"
Incidentally MM, I lived and worked as a pro in Manchester from '92 to '05 so there's a good chance I'll have been on the stand with the guys you're referring to.
Jake[/quote]
Hey I like that idea - not playing till they all shut up ! Great stuff!
Obviously we all work in different ways (it would be so boring if we were all the same) - and playing entirely unaccompanied is something I love to do BUT I always want to do it FREE from the tempo and the sequence. But this can only be done if the rest of the band are aware that this is going to happen or there will be a train crash. So its not really an option on a depping gig.

And like you I don't like being told to turn up. Mind you I like it even less when told to turn down - not that that happens very often. You are made to feel like you've committed a petty crime.
I think a good player should always start at minimal amplification and only turn up if the overall balance requires it.

So where did you play in Manchester, Jake ? And who were your regular cohorts ? I've been in this city for all my working life so we must know some of the same people.

The Major

[Rich]

I saw a jazz band in a pub in Bristol a couple of years back, bass player had a nice old Jazz and some fairly serious chops, and god did he know it. He overplayed terribly to the extent that, not content with a solo of his own, he virtually soloed during the other players' solos too. As a result it was a dog's dinner. Someone really needed to have a word.

[Doddy]

For me,it really depends on the tune on what I like to hear behind my solo.
If it's an uptempo number or straight eighth's feel I like the Drums to carry the groove as they were for
everyone else without necessarily dropping in volume. Whereas on other tunes I like minimal accompaniment.
It really depends how I'm feeling during a number.

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='Rich' post='530782' date='Jul 2 2009, 04:32 PM']I saw a jazz band in a pub in Bristol a couple of years back, bass player had a nice old Jazz and some fairly serious chops, and god did he know it. He overplayed terribly to the extent that, not content with a solo of his own, he virtually soloed during the other players' solos too. As a result it was a dog's dinner. Someone really needed to have a word.[/quote]
Actually Rich you have hit the nail on the head there - it's all about musicality. Most of the time, in a jazz context, there is only one soloist, the rest are there to support him/her and that takes a good understanding of what is required to make the best and most creative music.
This is really what I have been driving at with this post - getting players to listen to each other and to react to what they play so the whole thing makes musical sense.
One thing which is missing so much in "average" performances is DYNAMICS, and this should be as much a part of the improvisational process as the sequence and the groove.

It shouldn't be the same everytime of course, but a good option is for each new soloist to start quietly, letting the soloist build his/her ideas. The rhythm section should be quite happy to halve the feel or even play 1 in a bar. Or change the groove entirely, say from a swing to a latin or reggae or to something completely off the wall. For me the worst scenario is where a number is the same throughout - same tempo / same dynamic / same groove - its just boring !

The Major

[Spoombung]

I always enjoy that incredibly flat, anti-climatic moment when you're watching a jazz band and there's a few looks between band members and the bass solo starts. Everything just grinds to a halt. The drummer looks embarrassed and just stops to make way for a gloriously out- of- tune walking bass line... which is nearly always what the bass player was playing under the song, anyway.

[iamapirate]

OK, I'm not a huuuge jazzer, but I find it a lot easier to solo with some accompanyment - usually just drums, but it's what the song asks for. One of the main reasons why I don't play a huge amount of jazz is because it kind of gets a biiiit repetative *ducks*. I just think that you can hava lot more options when you can solo in a band with AND without accompanyment. So you can have breaks in oen song with crazy bass filling, and then in another song you can have a very melllow just bass solo. just my opinion!

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='Spoombung' post='530826' date='Jul 2 2009, 05:16 PM']I always enjoy that incredibly flat, anti-climatic moment when you're watching a jazz band and there's a few looks between band members and the bass solo starts. Everything just grinds to a halt. The drummer looks embarrassed and just stops to make way for a gloriously out- of- tune walking bass line... which is nearly always what the bass player was playing under the song, anyway.[/quote]
Spoombung - I think you have been watching and listening to the wrong quality of jazz bands !
Try to get hold of a DVD of Chick Corea's Acoustic Band with John Patatucci and Dave Wekl - then you will know what I'm talking about. Or Oscar Peterson with the late great Neils Henning Osted-Pederson on bass.

Or go to any gig where Chris Lawrence is playing bass.

The Major

[Spoombung]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='530843' date='Jul 2 2009, 05:36 PM']Spoombung - I think you have been watching and listening to the wrong quality of jazz bands !

The Major[/quote]

You may be right. My experience of Jazz is largely limited to Thursday Jazz Nite at the [i]The Lord Hood[/i] in Greenwich - which tends to feature swing-Jazz musicians who can play in their sleep (and audiences who can listen in their sleep). I know some of them. They're a terrific bunch but they never ever discuss [i]how[/i] they're gonna play the music - only [i]what[/i] they're gonna play. It always stays the same. But weirdly, that seems to be the whole point for them. It's the culture of [i]standards[/i] - a sought of false modesty and anonymity that always leaves me disappointed. And the (double) bass solos are the most anonymous, the most modest, the most exposed and the most out of tune.

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='Spoombung' post='530864' date='Jul 2 2009, 05:56 PM']You may be right. My experience of Jazz is largely limited to Thursday Jazz Nite at the [i]The Lord Hood[/i] in Greenwich - which tends to feature swing-Jazz musicians who can play in their sleep (and audiences who can listen in their sleep). I know some of them. They're a terrific bunch but they never ever discuss [i]how[/i] they're gonna play the music - only [i]what[/i] they're gonna play. It always stays the same. But weirdly, that seems to be the whole point for them. It's the culture of [i]standards[/i] - a sought of false modesty and anonymity that always leaves me disappointed. And the (double) bass solos are the most anonymous, the most modest, the most exposed and the most out of tune.[/quote]
Music at grass roots level is so very important- its where most players get their first encounter with the real thing - so it's very important for all musos to support these things if they possibly can.
But what we aspire to should be on a much higher level. Seek out the very best in any genre and you will be inspired to take your own playing to its highest limits.

I occasionally dep with a band much like the one you describe. Its always the same standards, always a little on the rough side but I always enjoy it for what it is. But I'm glad I don't do all their gigs !

The Major

[urb]

This has happened to me, I.e. on a jam where even the drummer stopped so I actually sang and played my solo to reinforce the melodic quality and keep some kind of a groove going... It worked well that time. My prefernce is for sensitve interaction from the other musicians, but the most recent gigs I've taken solos on have been funk ones, so the drummer is very much there with me, while the keyboardist and guitarist just lay down some spacey chords, thankfully they're all great players, who play jazz as well, and most importantly they know how to LISTEN! The one quality all musicians should have and use beyond all others, the music is a whole lot better for it that's for sure.

M

[bassace]

[quote name='Spoombung' post='530826' date='Jul 2 2009, 05:16 PM']I always enjoy that incredibly flat, anti-climatic moment when you're watching a jazz band and there's a few looks between band members and the bass solo starts. Everything just grinds to a halt. The drummer looks embarrassed and just stops to make way for a gloriously out- of- tune walking bass line... which is nearly always what the bass player was playing under the song, anyway.[/quote]

Doesn't have to be like that.

[Spoombung]

[quote name='bassace' post='530990' date='Jul 2 2009, 07:48 PM']Doesn't have to be like that.[/quote]


Yes, I agree it doesn't have to be like that.

The drummer dying during the bass solo harks back to a time of unamplified acoustic basses. Nowadays double basses are as loud as electric basses and I don't think I've ever seen an unamplified double bass - except perhaps at free-impro gigs.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='530766' date='Jul 2 2009, 04:15 PM']So where did you play in Manchester, Jake ? And who were your regular cohorts ? I've been in this city for all my working life so we must know some of the same people.

The Major[/quote]

All the hotels, country houses etc and the various Jazz venues that have existed over the years the Manchester jazz festival and the more concert type gigs in places like the RNCM and Band on the Wall
I played a lot with Les Chisnall, Dave Edge, Roy Powell, Mike Walker Iain Dixon Andy Schofield, Andy Scott Richard Wetherall, Steve Brown John Ellis, Steve Gilbert, Dave Hassall, Vinnie Parker, Les Bolger, Andy Pryor.... the list goes on and on. I did quite a few of the rhythm section and visiting soloist gigs. For 10 yrs I have worked with a musical comedy act called the Casablanca Steps which in the last five years has had London management and works in London, the south east and abroad a lot so I moved to just outside London in '05 to be closer to work and airports, and as is the way of things have ended up doing quite a bit of freelancing work down here eg a fortnight ago I did 2 days in Germany with the virtuoso violinist David Garrett which was depping for a very fine bass player called Tom Mason.
I'm guessing you play with the beeb or Halle (I know Maurice Stemp and Bill Kerr quite well as I used to be on the MU committee when it was in Canal St)

Nice to meet you properly Major.

Jake

Edited July 2, 2009 by jakesbass

[endorka]

[quote name='Spoombung' post='531015' date='Jul 2 2009, 08:09 PM']The drummer dying during the bass solo harks back to a time of unamplified acoustic basses. Nowadays double basses are as loud as electric basses and I don't think I've ever seen an unamplified double bass - except perhaps at free-impro gigs.[/quote]

Depending on the situation, I'll go unamplified on double bass whenever I get the chance. It's ideal for playing jazz as background music or in a restaurant, for example, where setting the volumes of all instruments to the unamplified double bass will more or less guarantee that you won't be too loud for people to converse with each other.

Playing the double bass acoustically has a set of charms all of its own, but you are right, it is incredibly easy for almost any other instrument to trash your solo if they are inexperienced.

Jennifer

[skankdelvar]

As a non-jazzer (and non-soloist), I've read this thread with considerable interest. It's like a whole different planet.

In my little world of pub blues, the idea of everyone else stopping for a bass solo would have the audience (and me) rushing for the doors.

But it sounds like fun. Fair play to you guys! Vive la difference.

Edited July 5, 2009 by skankdelvar