It's 15s it's is!

[la bam]

After years and years of 2x10, 4x10, 2x12, 6x10, if convinced myself that 15s are where "my" sound is. 

 

Just love them, now that I understand eq. Years and years when I didn't fully understand eq, ago they were muddy and dull. Too bassy.

 

Having played the odd one or two 15 combos in practice rooms I always was really impressed. Peavey, GK etc. Then my recent trace valve 15 (but that was glorious anyway). Then tonight played through a really cheap ashdown head and a 2x15 hartke cab - which started shocking, but one I boosted the mods and reduced a bit of treble sounded glorious. 

 

I'm never up with fashions... And all the recent bass cab fashions seems to be 10s and 12s...

 

Any love for 15 inch cabs? 

[chris_b]

I use 15's for 30 years, a couple of Peavey 115 and 215's, a Fender 215, but mostly EV's in Dynacord, Musicman and Mesa Boogie cabs. They gave me the sound I liked. IMO these days well designed 12" cabs can do anything a 15 could do, and they'll do it better.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

When EQ'd for the same frequency response you cannot tell the driver size. You can have a dozen drivers of the same size with a dozen different frequency responses. When cabs have the same cone displacement, be it from one larger driver or more than one smaller drivers, they have the same maximum output. The only factor that's attributable to cone size alone is the dispersion angle, it grows narrower as the cone grows larger. Even that can be tweaked, and for that matter a pair of tens placed horizontal will have narrower dispersion than a single eighteen. In the end one factor, be it cone size or any of the more than a dozen factors that sum to give the end result, doesn't determine said result. It's that sum total. 

[Beedster]

Irrespective of the science, I prefer 15s also 👍

[Steve Browning]

Me too. I appreciate the science and concede it's more psychological than factual, but it's been 15s for me for the last 50 years.

[Beedster]

2 minutes ago, Steve Browning said:

Me too. I appreciate the science and concede it's more psychological than factual, but it's been 15s for me for the last 50 years.

Preference requires no inference 👍

[BassAdder60]

When you see a cabinet frequency range stated does it mean the lower the stated HZ will sound deeper in tone ?

 

As a pick player using 10’s I often wonder if using 15’s would add more low end or can handle lower HZ more efficiently? 
 

I tried an older MarkBass 15” cab and didn’t like it as it was so dark sounding 

[Phil Starr]

As @Bill Fitzmaurice has said

4 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

In the end one factor, be it cone size or any of the more than a dozen factors that sum to give the end result, doesn't determine said result. It's that sum total. 

 

I did a blind shootout of six speakers ranging from 6" to 15" at a couple of bass bashes this year. All eq's flat and diven at the same volume by identical PA amps so no tone shaping taking place. Even when I told them what they were listening too people couldn't reliably list them from smallest to largest. The favourite was an 8" cab which a number of BassChatters are now building but all had some admirers. If I did the same next year with different drivers I'm pretty sure the favourite would be a different cab.

 

After the demo I had the 15 out so I used it at a couple of rehearsals, with a TE Elf it sounded great but not special, with a Warwick Gnome it sounded special. Neither amp is flat (and we've measured them) and the speaker certainly isn't flat but the Eminence Deltalite 15 suits the Warwick Gnome and the high efficiency of the Deltalite and limited top end suit the Gnome.

 

I am a scientist and can use measuremnts to understand what is going on but using your ears is still the only test that really matters. We all percieve sound differently so personal taste is what matters in the end and if you are enjoying your sound you will play more and ultimately better. It just isn't the 15'ness of the speaker that's doing it

[itu]

6 minutes ago, BassAdder60 said:

When you see a cabinet frequency range stated does it mean the lower the stated Hz will sound deeper in tone?

No. One plain number tells very little about the response. Most of the numbers seem to be about marketing than real life. I would like to see something like this, although this is mostly wishful thinking: 

 

Response: 60 - 4000 Hz (±6 dB) 

Wattage: 500 W @ 8 ohm 

Sensitivity: >100 dB / 1 m / 1 W 

(previous numbers tell me that the cab is capable of pushing at least 127 dB, and 8 ohm means that it is pretty easy load to any amp, 60 Hz equals good response even with a 5 string bass) 

(Adjustable) Tweeter 

2 Speakons 

Weight: <45 lbs (means Nd elements) 

1x12" / 1x15" / 2x10" / 2x12" 

[itu]

Oh yes, if you are using a tube/valve amp, I'd recommend a 2x10" or 2x12", where elements are 16 ohm and connected in parallel. If the other element would break, there would be another left as a load. This could save the transformer. 

[BigRedX]

Why do we still think that the size of the driver cone is the most important factor in describing a cab?

 

Every cab will sound different, I've owned cabs with the same driver configuration but completely different sounds. Not surprising when you consider that just about everything else to do with the cab - size, construction, driver specifications other than the cone diameters - was completely different. 

 

If I was still using backline the diameter of the driver would be the least important factor in choosing a cab.

[la bam]

Isn't there other factors too, from a striictly playing point of view, other than just what it can handle - speed of driver/cone response, feel (flappy, tight etc), the 'slam' you get from them... 

 

Apologies for the non scientific terms just describing in a very basic way terms from a playing point of view. 

[Beedster]

40 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

I am a scientist and can use measuremnts to understand what is going on but using your ears is still the only test that really matters. We all percieve sound differently so personal taste is what matters in the end and if you are enjoying your sound you will play more and ultimately better. It just isn't the 15'ness of the speaker that's doing it

 

Agreed 👍

[BassAdder60]

So it’s fair to say a 15” speaker cab won’t sound deeper if the low frequency is increased compared to say a 10” speaker assuming both can handle the low bass ? 
 

im aware they may sound the same flat but what if you say boosted mostly the 80hz upwards which normal driver would cope better ?

 

IE why do we use 15” or 18” subs with PA surely it’s because they handle very low hz better and sound deeper ? 

[warwickhunt]

I did a totally unscientific comparison with some cabs (which is probably more relevant going off some comments here, than the science numbers).

 

I can tell you that of those who messaged me after I did this, 'nobody' identified the cab that had a 15" driver!  I actually conducted this test again with two bass playing mates + my wife who is relatively new to actually playing bass but has heard every cab/amp I've ever used in the last 38 years; we had to adapt it so that the directionality [position of driver relative to the ear] was taken out of the equation and in the blind test it was concluded that identifying the correct driver size was pot-luck!  When writing down notes, the descriptions were likewise so random that one person's tight response was the other person's wooly sound!  LOL  

 

 

[warwickhunt]

 

 

BTW if you decide to listen to these samples, just try to identify the speaker size you have a preference for, don't try to identify all of the variations.

[Rosie C]

9 hours ago, la bam said:

Any love for 15 inch cabs? 

 

Yup! I can't lift it without getting someone to come and help, and I did it despite the blind testing that @Phil Starr organised at the SW bass bash, but I recently bought my first 15" and the sound is glorious. Of course (for me at least) how much that is a placebo effect because it looks so awesome, dominating the room from its corner, I don't know.  

 

[Beedster]

19 minutes ago, Rosie C said:

 

Yup! I can't lift it without getting someone to come and help, and I did it despite the blind testing that @Phil Starr organised at the SW bass bash, but I recently bought my first 15" and the sound is glorious. Of course (for me at least) how much that is a placebo effect because it looks so awesome, dominating the room from its corner, I don't know.  

 

 

A placebo effect is still an effect 👍

[itu]

34 minutes ago, BassAdder60 said:

IE why do we use 15” or 18” subs with PA surely it’s because they handle very low Hz better and sound deeper ? 

Your term "deeper" most likely needs some definition. A good system even today costs some money. An ELF, and a 2x8" is most likely not suitable in a bigger venue without the help of a PA. 

 

First of all, the system (cabinet + X-over + elements) has to be designed and made well. I have seen many combos/cabs throughout the years that have been mediocre at best. 

 

If the system is designed for bassist, it has to deliver some kind of response from around 60 Hz up to around 4 kHz (you don't get much higher frequencies from an ordinary coil-magnet pickup). 

 

You want extra bass through subs, fine. How big are they, how much do they weigh, and how high the response goes? If you can and want to carry such a system (subs + bass), you can do that but how feasible is that? 31 Hz is very low, therefore your subs need minimum of 2 kW power on top of that 500 W bass amp. 

 

Is the venue so big that you get any benefit from a system that goes down to 31 Hz? Will everything sound messy and mushy? 

 

Subs have a very limited response. There are some elements that happen to be big, but as said, very limited. If you start the cab design from an 18", you most likely need a ten, and a tweeter to the cab. Have you ever carried such a monster to a stage? TE 1818X was just terrible. 

 

Is the answer to you an equalizer, or a better system, I don't know, but the size of an element will not answer to your need of "deeper". 

[chris_b]

Even after it's been explained, people are still saying they prefer something which has no bearing on the sound. . . . a speaker size!!!

[Beedster]

1 minute ago, chris_b said:

Even after it's been explained, people are still saying they prefer something which has no bearing on the sound. . . . a speaker size!!!

Some people don’t like sunburst finishes, some do 👍

[Beedster]

4 minutes ago, chris_b said:

Even after it's been explained, people are still saying they prefer something which has no bearing on the sound. . . . a speaker size!!!

BTW it has NOT been explained, sensation and perception are a major player in audio, what happens inside the skull can be as important as what goes on outside it. 

[itu]

22 minutes ago, Beedster said:

BTW it has NOT been explained, sensation and perception are a major player in audio... 

Oh yes, an amp with brushed aluminium face sounds brighter and harsher than its sibling with black face. Don't ever make a unit that is brown! 

[Beedster]

6 minutes ago, itu said:

Oh yes, an amp with brushed aluminium face sounds brighter and harsher than its sibling with black face. Don't ever make a unit that is brown! 

Exactly 😆

 

There's a song by Dylan, I forget which one, and it has the most awful dissonance at one point - it's in a sax solo - to the point that it makes my teeth hurt! My bandmate's can't hear it, or more to the point, it isn't dissonant to them. Brains are funny things  

[Phil Starr]

1 hour ago, Rosie C said:

 

Yup! I can't lift it without getting someone to come and help, and I did it despite the blind testing that @Phil Starr organised at the SW bass bash, but I recently bought my first 15" and the sound is glorious. Of course (for me at least) how much that is a placebo effect because it looks so awesome, dominating the room from its corner, I don't know.  

 

I may be able to help with the lift

 

Not literally of course, and you may not thank me. It involves another build.

 

I enjoyed playing around with my 15 and the Bash coincided with a couple of people asking for a 15" design. So... I've quietly adapted the design I have to be an 'Easy Build' project and when the drawings are ready it will be good to go. It weighs in at around 14kg at the moment which for me is a one handed carry. 

Edited 3 hours ago by Phil Starr