Bass ‘choking’ in the upper register

[Bass Wielder]

Hi,

I'm normally ok at doing my own setup but this is beating me a bit so I’m seeking the set up pros advice/recommendations…🙏🏾

Hopfully I can explain properly and maybe get a solution🤞🏾

It’s a Fender Jazz 5 string with a Hipshot Kickass (edit) bridge.

When I got it, it was already choking (from about the 15th fret). Raising the action didn’t help much. Other than making the lower register thought to play.

Same results with loosening the truss rod.

On removing the neck, I found a paper thin shim at the heel of the neck pocket.

I tried a ‘credit card’ lift at the back of the pocket…made it worse.

Also the bridge saddle legs are at the maximum….

I’m not an expert but I suspect the neck pocket is not deep enough….🤔????

 

Thoughts guys? Any help greatly appreciated👍🏾

ps: added a messy little video as proof…

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Bass Wielder

[gary mac]

I would first check the frets. I suspect that there are a few high/unlevel ones.

Almost every instrument that I get to work on, needs fret work.

 

 

[Doctor J]

How do you set the relief? Any bow in the neck adds string clearance for the lower frets only and tends to mean you have the action lower on the higher frets than you really should have, giving you this kind of buzz. The bow is adding behind the fret you're playing at, meaning you've sod all clearance at the higher frets. Loosening the truss rod will only exacerbate this.

 

First, put the original shim back in at the heel. A Badass bridge maxed out means the strings are a long, long way from the body.

 

Set the relief so that, when you hold the strings down at the first fret and the last fret, you have a gap about the width of a business card between the bottom of the strings and the top of the frets. No more than that. Once that's done, then set the action.

 

 

[Bass Wielder]

On 03/11/2023 at 14:31, Doctor J said:

How do you set the relief? Any bow in the neck adds string clearance for the lower frets only and tends to mean you have the action lower on the higher frets than you really should have, giving you this kind of buzz. The bow is adding behind the fret you're playing at, meaning you've sod all clearance at the higher frets. Loosening the truss rod will only exacerbate this.

 

First, put the original shim back in at the heel. A Badass bridge maxed out means the strings are a long, long way from the body.

 

Set the relief so that, when you hold the strings down at the first fret and the last fret, you have a gap about the width of a business card between the bottom of the strings and the top of the frets. No more than that. Once that's done, then set the action.

 

 

Thanks for that!👍🏾

Will try, will update!!🤞🏾

[Downunderwonder]

You might as well fix your intonation while you are at it. Every bass I ever bought needed at least a little setting up. I am surprised I don't hear more badly set up ones out in public after some of the major tweakage required. Even the one that was almost flat had bad intonation.

[Baloney Balderdash]

On 03/11/2023 at 15:31, Doctor J said:

How do you set the relief? Any bow in the neck adds string clearance for the lower frets only and tends to mean you have the action lower on the higher frets than you really should have, giving you this kind of buzz. The bow is adding behind the fret you're playing at, meaning you've sod all clearance at the higher frets. Loosening the truss rod will only exacerbate this.

 

First, put the original shim back in at the heel. A Badass bridge maxed out means the strings are a long, long way from the body.

 

Set the relief so that, when you hold the strings down at the first fret and the last fret, you have a gap about the width of a business card between the bottom of the strings and the top of the frets. No more than that. Once that's done, then set the action.

 

 

But surely a shim will only raise the neck further, meaning the saddles at the bridge needing to be raised even higher to achieve proper action, also if the shim is placed at the back of the pocket, as it usually would, it would decrease string angle in relation to the fretboard, thereby decreasing the string action at the upper part of the fretboard/upper frets closest to the body, which would make any eventual fret caused buzz up there even worse.

 

So I'd say leave the shim out all together, and as otherwise suggested tighten the truss rod to decrease neck relief.

 

When pressing down the low B string at the first and last fret simultaneously you would not want any more than just about a business card (not credit card) thickness gap at about 8th fret.

 

And probably in your case even less, so if above doesn't help, try this:

 

Set your neck relief, adjusting the truss rod, so that pressing down the low B string at the first fret with a finger on your left hand, simultaneously with the little finger of your right hand pressing down the low B string at the 17th fret, and while doing so taping the thumb of your right hand against the low B string on the 12th fret, doing so there should be just exactly enough clearance/relief for you to hear a faint tap sound, nothing more.

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Dazed]

Like someone wrote above, if the bridge saddles are raised that high something strange is happening.

Have you any pictures of that?

Is it all original ie - the body and neck? 

[Doctor J]

20 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

But surely a shim will only raise the neck further, meaning the saddles at the bridge needing to be raised even higher to achieve proper action, also if the shim is placed at the back of the pocket, as it usually would, it would decrease string angle in relation to the fretboard, thereby decreasing the string action at the upper part of the fretboard/upper frets closest to the bridge, which would make any eventual fret caused buzz up there even worse.

 

So I'd say leave the shim out all together, and as otherwise suggested tighten the truss rod to decrease neck relief.

 

When pressing down the low B string at the first and last fret simultaneously you would not want any more than just about a business card (not credit card) thickness gap at about 8th fret.

 

And probably in your case even less, so if above doesn't help, try this:

 

Set your neck relief, adjusting the truss rod, so that pressing down the low E string at the first fret with a finger on your left hand, simultaneously with the little finger of your right hand pressing down the low B string at the 17th fret, and while doing so taping the thumb of your right hand against the low B string on the 12th fret, doing so there should be just exactly enough clearance/relief for you to hear a faint tap sound, nothing more.

 

It's got a Badass bridge, that's why.

[Bass Wielder]

16 hours ago, Dazed said:

Like someone wrote above, if the bridge saddles are raised that high something strange is happening.

Have you any pictures of that?

Is it all original ie - the body and neck? 

Stock except for bridge. (It’s actually a Hipshot Kickass).

 

[Bass Wielder]

I’ll try the shim at original place then use some of the ideas above…

If no joy, then I’ll shift the shim to the ‘top’ part of the heel (towards the headstock) and try the same ideas.

Thanks so far guys…👍🏾

[jrixn1]

On 02/11/2023 at 19:31, Bass Wielder said:

Also the bridge saddle legs are at the maximum….

 

I've had a bass like this, and had success with a reverse shim (i.e. at the other end of the neck pocket than a shim typically goes).

[bloke_zero]

On 03/11/2023 at 14:31, Doctor J said:

How do you set the relief? Any bow in the neck adds string clearance for the lower frets only and tends to mean you have the action lower on the higher frets than you really should have, giving you this kind of buzz. The bow is adding behind the fret you're playing at, meaning you've sod all clearance at the higher frets. Loosening the truss rod will only exacerbate this.

 

First, put the original shim back in at the heel. A Badass bridge maxed out means the strings are a long, long way from the body.

 

Set the relief so that, when you hold the strings down at the first fret and the last fret, you have a gap about the width of a business card between the bottom of the strings and the top of the frets. No more than that. Once that's done, then set the action.

 

 

I agree - setting the neck relief before adjusting the bridge saddles is the best way. Trying to fix these problems without the right neck relief can be impossible.

[Bass Wielder]

 Hi guys,

Firstly, thanks for all the helpful input.

Using a combination of the suggestions, I managed to get it to a compromised playing state. (After some hours of trial and error).

Notes:

*no shim in the neck pocket as this seems to work best.

*the action is a tad higher  than I would like (to be non buzzy). 
*……..as I cannot put the neck any straighter without buzz (truss rod trials).
*the saddle legs of the bridge are still quite high….

I think the relationship between the neck pocket depth and body thickness (thus bridge height) is not right.

See pictures.

I personally like a generous height of the ‘neck in pocket’ (not sure what it’s called😂) like my wonderful ACG’s but it must be in proper relation to the body thickness/bridge height at the part of the body.

Thoughts?

…..to be continued 

[Bass Wielder]

Thought:

on looking at the bridge position from the side, it’s on a slope of the body.

That is because of the position of the holes and the bigger size (than the original Fender barrel type.

A good idea move it forward to the top of the body slope? (It has more than enough saddle intonation travel to compensate)……

[Doctor J]

"as I cannot put the neck any straighter without buzz (truss rod trials)"

 

Buzz where?

[Bass Wielder]

2 hours ago, Doctor J said:

"as I cannot put the neck any straighter without buzz (truss rod trials)"

 

Buzz where?

High up the neck….

[Doctor J]

When the neck has all the relief dialled out you still get buzzing on the higher frets, but the lower frets are ok, despite the action being uncomfortably high?

 

 

[Doctor J]

What is the relief like on both sides of the neck, holding the strings down at the first and last frets? Is is a gradual very slight curve, symmetrical as you move towards the 8th fret in both directions?

 

And what is the relief like if you hold the strings down at the 12th and last frets? Is there a ski jump at the butt of the neck, a warping where the neck bends slightly just before where it gets bolted to the body?

 

If you have a 6" ruler to hand, start looking at how straight 6" sections of the neck are from the first fret to the last. Are there any spots where you see a gap under the middle of the ruler?

[Downunderwonder]

20 hours ago, Doctor J said:

When the neck has all the relief dialled out you still get buzzing on the higher frets, but the lower frets are ok, despite the action being uncomfortably high?

 

 

Methinks you two have your high and low swapped because I am not following at all.

[Doctor J]

Low frets = toward the nut

High frets = toward the body

 

I ask because high action on a straight neck shouldn't have buzz on the high frets without something odd going on which goes beyond a setup issue, which is why the post after asks what it does.

 

[Downunderwonder]

3 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

Low frets = toward the nut

High frets = toward the body

 

I ask because high action on a straight neck shouldn't have buzz on the high frets without something odd going on which goes beyond a setup issue, which is why the post after asks what it does.

 

Yep.

 

One more time for OP.

 

Setup:

 

Adjust truss rod for relief in the centre when the strings are held to frets at both ends. 1 business card worth is common.

 

Adjust saddles up and down so strings don't buzz...

 

and in and out so intonation is optimized.

 

Most people like the sounds of the 12th fret note and 12th fret harmonic to be an exact match.

[Downunderwonder]

If the saddlea can't be adjusted to suit then there is an issue with something other than the neck relief.

 

Screwed up neck.

Neck/body incompatibility.

Bridge incompatible.

 

Or combination that someone tried to fix by installing new bridge.

[Bass Wielder]

Got busy for the weekend gigs…

I’ll return to answer/update after the weekend.

Thanks guys…

[Lfalex v1.1]

On 04/11/2023 at 20:32, Downunderwonder said:

You might as well fix your intonation while you are at it. Every bass I ever bought needed at least a little setting up. I am surprised I don't hear more badly set up ones out in public after some of the major tweakage required. Even the one that was almost flat had bad intonation.

 

I've found similar with many basses I've bought/ played/ worked on.

 

Also,  the better / more accurate the tuner, the better the results are. 

I use a rack mount Korg DTR 1000 when doing set-ups. It's as clear as day, and more accurate than my other Korg, Boss or Zoom units. 

 

I  may well attack my Epiphone with the Allen Keys this week! (relief could comfortably be less- rod needs tightening a smidge)

[DGBass]

I've seen a similar problem before with some Fender/Squire/MIM basses. Fitting a small shim at the front of the neck pocket to more or less raise the angle that the neck leaves the body has helped and on occasion eliminated buzz at the dusty end of the fingerboard. I used thin soft plastic or platiciesd card and secured the shim in place by drilling two holes in the shim where the neck screws come through the wood. Fitting a shim is easier than sanding necks or pockets but still not ideal. I would echo whats been said here already about getting the basics sorted like neck relief, intonation( this will also get string tension in the right place), and string height at the nut before anything else is considered.  Most mass produced basses these days do need some sort of setup or adjustment to get them playing perfectly. As far as shims go, even very thin material can have a marked effect. Something like credit card thick material is probably overkill.