Best bang for 'my' buck active PA/monitor cab(s)

[warwickhunt]

My situation - Play bass and sing harmonies in several (loud) bands and play acoustic guitar in a quiet duo.  I own various bass rigs but I'm wanting to move away from that weight/load and I've tried/failed the IEM route, so a good quality active speaker mounted on a stand at the side of the stage will be my rig and the same speaker could do the acoustic duo as FOH (2 might be overkill).  I'm presently using an RCF310 (I have 4 in total that I bought as a package) which is working fine but I feel I'd like to take the next step up.  

 

My shortlist is QSC 12.2 or RCF 732/932 but I'd not be averse to a similar quality 10" but I feel that to get the best from the vocalist in the duo a 3" compression driver would be best (don't know of a 10" driver + 3" CD).  

 

Am I missing anything (manufacturer or series/spec by QSC RCF) by focusing on these 2 options and/or could I get away with a lower spec version of the above (inc 10")?

 

I could buy a single of the above new, so that is my budget but I'm inclined to look for used as that's just the way I'm wired.    

[warwickhunt]

Interestingly a friend has a pair of the original QSC K10 speakers for sale (£800 the pair, very light use with covers)... now I need to research if they are worth getting or do I hold out for 12.2?

[Phil Starr]

I don’t know if you’ll want to hear this but to date the best floor monitors for your buck IMEare the RCF 310s. I’ve never tried the QSC12.2s as monitors but we used them as PA for years and they have some harshness, fine speakers though they are which would make me look elsewhere as a monitor.

 

You mention a loud band. I’m assuming you can get feedback if you turn everything right up? If so you don’t need anything louder. The 310s strong point for me is feedback resistance, the response is free of nasties so gain before feedback is good. If you are running the 310s into distortion/overload then unless you’re on huge stages you are just too loud.

 

They do need eq though. On the floor there is way too much bass as they are set up to work on poles. You don’t want low frequencies in monitors anyway. I shelve the bass response @150hz down 6db and then HPF as well. If we are close to the PA I will cut the bass even more as we get more than enough from there.

 

RCF and others don’t use the big horn drivers in their smaller speakers because they don’t need to. The crossover point can be higher because the smaller drivers have a better response in the mid range so there is no gap to close.

 

There comes a point particularly on small stages where just pouring more sound in makes intelligibility worse, we just aren’t designed to work in 100db environments.

[warwickhunt]

I don't mind hearing ANY advice, so long as it is based on science or reasoned factual experience (which yours is obviously).    

 

Loud band - no on-stage feedback experienced at any time.  I should add that other than my attempt with IEM I always wear moulded ear plugs.

 

In the past couple of years I've gone (pretty much in this order);

 

1.  Backline projecting to room/FOH with PA Aux send to 310 on floor as monitor for my vocal + lead vocal + guitar (guitarist uses IEM no backline) >

2.  Pedals/preamp into PA / FOH split into backline as my bass monitor (NOT projecting into room) with PA Aux send to 310 as monitor on floor  >

3.  Pedals/preamp into PA / FOH with everything back through Aux return to my IEM > 

4.  Pedals/preamp into PA / FOH split into backline as my bass monitor with PA Aux send to my IEM for my vocals and rest of band >

5.  Pedals/preamp into PA / FOH and Aux send to 310 on a speaker stand at my side of stage with 'everything' in it (excluding drums)>

 

I think that covers my journey and I have to confess the last few gigs with scenario 5. have worked pretty well.  I've used my preamp pedals (Fishman Plat Pro + Sansamp) with HPF to ensure no wasted energy in my monitor or PA.  'IF' this is to be my favoured set up going forward, I feel I'd like to get the best bang for buck that I can, with the caveat I don't like wasting/squandering money (not sure that last bit is always true).  I know the RCF310 is doing a good job but I'm asking these questions of myself and others, just to be sure I'm having the best experience that I can.  

 

A friend is loaning me his QSC K10 (series 1) to gig this Saturday to see if I notice any obvious difference between the RCF / QSC using the same size 10" driver.  The venue does have floor monitors but I'm going to get them to bypass theirs and go into my monitor.  I'm tempted to take both monitors and either link them, swapping them over from floor to stand between sets or just to unplug and replace each between sets.  

 

 

 

[jrixn1]

I've bounced back and forth between 10" and 12" over the last few years.  The 10" I had were RCF HD 10-A (similar to your 310-A) and Yamaha DXR10.  Our band have some QSC K10 so I've used those a bit too.  For 12", I've owned RCF 732-A, FBT ProMaxx 112A, and QSC CP12.

 

For me the 10" were great most of the time but on some occasions at louder gigs they were starting to limit or otherwise not perform effortlessly, particularly in the lower frequencies.  It was never really awful, but I did notice it and think that it would be nicer to have a better stage sound.

 

The RCF 732-A and FBT ProMaxx 112A are definitely a step up in quality.  I didn't have to run them hard at all, so they sound better.  The 732-A was the best stage sound I've ever had; but I appreciated the ProMaxx 112A's lower weight (14.8kg vs 17.8kg).  However, running either of them at a very low level felt like overkill, with so much in reserve but still transporting them to gigs just to have them barely ticking over.  They are also physically larger of course and with 10+ of us in the band the stage is already always cramped.

 

The QSC CP12 is interesting and has hit a sweet spot for me, as it's the size and weight of a 10" enclosure but they've put a 12" driver inside.  Ultimately it won't go as loud as the 732-A or ProMaxx 112A, but as mentioned above that isn't a problem for me.

 

FWIW I've been meaning to list my FBT ProMaxx 112A for sale - you're welcome to trial for a few weeks if interested (with a view to buying it - but just send it back if it's not a match).

 

[Owen]

RCF 745A? As featured in

I am no longer gigging actively, but did have a brief internal debate about buying these!

 

I am using a QSC K10.2 as backline because even when I do gig I will not be anywhere near a loud drummer. It is an exceptionally capable cab. We use the QSC K12 at work and would happily borrow one of those if I needed to fight with a drummer.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Owen

[warwickhunt]

Just now, Owen said:

RCF 745A? As featured in

I am no longer gigging actively, but did have a brief internal debate about buying these!

 

They would be the mutt's nuts but 15" are just overkill for my needs mate.  

[Owen]

2 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

 

They would be the mutt's nuts but 15" are just overkill for my needs mate.  

The BC way this is not.

[Owen]

Too short life is for bad tone.

[warwickhunt]

1 minute ago, Owen said:

Too short life is for bad tone.

 

In which case I'd go back to my backline!    

[Owen]

Yeah, but the schlep

 

The struggle is real.

[Pirellithecat]

Not sure this is in line with the question, ..... but...... I have been using a Studiomaster Sense 12+ as a floor monitor in a noisy band.    No drums but Vocals/guitar/+/_Bass.    I found it to be better than my RCF Art 710 even with the latter on a pole.   It's a very neat (small) footprint as it has a concentric driver and is relatively light and inexpensive.   It can also be pole mounted.
 

[BCH]

On 27/09/2023 at 15:04, warwickhunt said:

My situation - Play bass and sing harmonies in several (loud) bands and play acoustic guitar in a quiet duo.  I own various bass rigs but I'm wanting to move away from that weight/load and I've tried/failed the IEM route, so a good quality active speaker mounted on a stand at the side of the stage will be my rig and the same speaker could do the acoustic duo as FOH (2 might be overkill).  I'm presently using an RCF310 (I have 4 in total that I bought as a package) which is working fine but I feel I'd like to take the next step up.  

 

My shortlist is QSC 12.2 or RCF 732/932 but I'd not be averse to a similar quality 10" but I feel that to get the best from the vocalist in the duo a 3" compression driver would be best (don't know of a 10" driver + 3" CD).  

 

Am I missing anything (manufacturer or series/spec by QSC RCF) by focusing on these 2 options and/or could I get away with a lower spec version of the above (inc 10")?

 

I could buy a single of the above new, so that is my budget but I'm inclined to look for used as that's just the way I'm wired.    

Ive got RCF TT1A's for sale on BC, they will outperform any 12" & a couple of subs..will do a package price...good luck

 

[warwickhunt]

2 hours ago, BCH said:

Ive got RCF TT1A's for sale on BC, they will outperform any 12" & a couple of subs..will do a package price...good luck

 

 

Great speakers but massive overkill for my use either as a bass monitor or for an acoustic duo.   

[Downunderwonder]

17 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

I have to confess the last few gigs with scenario 5. have worked pretty well.

Being happy with pretty good is a good place to be. Methinks you have got the gas.

 

Otherwise you will have to define what is missing from your monitor sound  or your FOH sound that you feel could be improved.

[warwickhunt]

5 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Being happy with pretty good is a good place to be. Methinks you have got the gas.

 

Otherwise you will have to define what is missing from your monitor sound  or your FOH sound that you feel could be improved.

 

GAS could well account for it, no denying that.    

 

'Missing' - nothing missing, I can hear what is coming through the monitor but I am on 75% of the travel of the monitor pot (not saying this is 3/4 of full volume) and I'm not playing large venues with this set up.  I'm yet to test the RCF310's projection abilities, without it interfering with onstage mics etc. so I don't know if a better quality unit might negate issues (though I appreciate volume is volume on a stage with live mics).  I'd also like to know from the experience of others IF I can get an improved tone/sound within a reasonable budget, after all you could argue a £100 bass cab will let you hear yourself as easily as a £1000 cab; they won't sound the same but arguably they'll do the same job.  

 

'FOH' - not in the equation.  I go from pedals to PA and it is for the PA guy to do his thing for FOH and then send me signals through the Aux so that I can set the mix in my monitor (via my phone).

[BigRedX]

If it's simply for on-stage monitoring, IMO your current FRFR cabs are fine. 

 

When I ditched my traditional bass rig and went for a Helix and FRFR I bought the RCF745 as it was being recommended as the best VfM and would also be suitable to use for the bass without PA support. In retrospect it is overkill for my needs - one band has ditched on-stage amplification completely and in the other it gets used for rehearsals and as a personal monitor on smaller stages where the quality of the in-house foldback is unknown. In the 5 years I've been using it, I only need to use it twice as a conventional bass rig so the audience could hear me, and it coped brilliantly. In fact the improved dispersion over my previous rigs meant that I only needed to be slightly louder than normal on stage as opposed to being so loud I could barely hear the rest of the band.

 

What I am trying to say is if I needed to replace the 745, I would do so with something smaller, lighter and cheaper (like the cab you have) and it would still be perfectly adequate for me.

[warwickhunt]

Good to hear this first hand experiences; 44 of my 45 years of gigging experience has been cabs and amps and I know what I like and what worked for me with those... I'm now just looking at simplifying/lightening the load in my 60's BUT I don't want a massive compromise (sadly IEM was a step too far but that is not the point of discussion). 

 

My present RCF310 is performing fine but I suppose I'm just feeling about to see if it can be improved upon for not a lot of extra outlay.  I've got the loan of a QSC K10 (with the view to buying the pair for £800), so I have the opportunity to 'potentially' A/B the RCF/QSC on Saturday but I'll need to be sure I'm not messing everything up for the band/sound-guy.  Shouldn't be an issue but I need to make fair comparisons.  

[Owen]

I guess if the FOH is doing it's thing then the LF will be happening anyway. And if you are mixing monitors on your phone then there will be access to some serious EQ options. Therefore you can let the FOH do the heavy lifting, cut the LF in your wedge and save your back. I do really like my QSC K10.2 but I cannot imagine there will be a night and day difference between the RCF and the QSC. I will be interested to know. The QSC does have some useful on board processing. 

[warwickhunt]

1 hour ago, Owen said:

I guess if the FOH is doing it's thing then the LF will be happening anyway. And if you are mixing monitors on your phone then there will be access to some serious EQ options. Therefore you can let the FOH do the heavy lifting, cut the LF in your wedge and save your back. I do really like my QSC K10.2 but I cannot imagine there will be a night and day difference between the RCF and the QSC. I will be interested to know. The QSC does have some useful on board processing. 

 

QSC 10 / RCF 310 - main difference should be headroom but the 10" driver is the limiting factor.  

 

K10 / K10.2 - this is where I'm on the horns of a dilemma (atm) as I have access to the K10 (series 1) but it is an unknown if the 10.2 is worth the extra outlay (used).  Gut says 'no' as I'm never going to test the extra power the .2 has, as it will never be doing heavy lifting (my monitor or acoustic duo PA) and I don't imagine there is masses of difference in sound.  On board processing would be nice but when I'm using it with a digital desk I can do everything pre monitor and when used with the duo, we have basic needs and a neat little A&H mixer.  

 

Moving up to a 12" RCF or QSC is starting to make less sense for my needs.

[Owen]

I hear you. The A&H will do all that the extra onboard DSP in the 10.2 will do. 

[Downunderwonder]

3 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

FOH' - not in the equation.  I go from pedals to PA and it is for the PA guy to do his thing for FOH and then send me signals through the Aux so that I can set the mix in my monitor (via my phone).

You mentioned a acoustic guitar gig, double duty as FOH I assumed.

[Downunderwonder]

59 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

acoustic duo PA

Ahem!!!

[jrixn1]

4 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

I am on 75% of the travel of the monitor pot (not saying this is 3/4 of full volume) 

 

I was about 75% on my HD 10-A; when I moved to 732-A I was on no more than 25%.

 

1 hour ago, warwickhunt said:

 

QSC 10 / RCF 310 - main difference should be headroom but the 10" driver is the limiting factor.  

 

The K10 has a HPF option (around 100Hz I think) if you turn the dial to 'ext sub'. This could make a difference.

[warwickhunt]

28 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

Ahem!!!

 

It literally is 1 acoustic guitar + 2 vocals at 'low' volume @Downunderwonder, we never play noisy or large venues... think café/lounge volumes.  In fact I've been known to take along just my Ashdown Acoustic Radiator (60w 1x8 combo with 2 channels); the regular set up is a 4 channel A&H desk into one RCF310 and volume barely ticking over.  

 

I think the limitations are more re the RCF than the @jrixn1 QSC but agree it makes sense to not put anything too low through either.  I have a Fishman Plat Pro in my signal chain (bass and acoustic) which has a HPF set at 45 or 60.  I set it and leave it so unsure as to what it is set to but it is just enough that it doesn't affect FOH sound but eliminates wasted energy in the monitor.