Digital Mixer and Gigs

[tauzero]

Looks like I'm the poor relation with a mere XR12, which was all I thought I'd need (mind you, I think it's still all I need as things stand). The software has been a bit of a steep learning curve - I'm going to try the mixingstation app to see if that's simpler.

[Woodinblack]

33 minutes ago, tauzero said:

Looks like I'm the poor relation with a mere XR12, which was all I thought I'd need

I have an xr16 as well which is what I thought I needed, and honestly apart from multitrack recording, it is, the 18 just adds more jack inputs, more aux outputs that I don’t currently need, a pair of inputs (vs 2 singles) and the usb

[dave_bass5]

57 minutes ago, tauzero said:

Looks like I'm the poor relation with a mere XR12, which was all I thought I'd need (mind you, I think it's still all I need as things stand). The software has been a bit of a steep learning curve - I'm going to try the mixingstation app to see if that's simpler.

I went straight in with mixing station when I got my XR18 last month, and found it much harder to figure out. It’s fantastic once you get to grips with it, but the learning curve seems much higher than the stock apps. 

[Woodinblack]

20 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

I went straight in with mixing station when I got my XR18 last month, and found it much harder to figure out. It’s fantastic once you get to grips with it, but the learning curve seems much higher than the stock apps. 

 

I have it and occasionally use it (it is good as a backup on the phone, as the official app is iPad only), but I never really got on with it - maybe I could have spent more time

 

[dave_bass5]

4 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

I have it and occasionally use it (it is good as a backup on the phone, as the official app is iPad only), but I never really got on with it - maybe I could have spent more time

 

Most YouTube videos for the XR are based on the official app, and I found that they were easier to follow over the handful of old android phone videos for MS. 
For me the XR18 was a new concept, so having to learn a very comprehensive bit of hardware and software at the same time gave me headaches lol. 
At least with X-Air it’s all laid out by default. 

I’m ok with MS now, more or less, but will hopefully go back the X-Air once it’s more usable on my iPad (yes, I’m all up to date, it’s still not 100% though).  
For now we are all settled with MS though, and the others are using their phones so it makes sense that I stick with MS so we are all working with the same layouts. 

[SamIAm]

1 hour ago, dave_bass5 said:

I went straight in with mixing station when I got my XR18 last month, and found it much harder to figure out. It’s fantastic once you get to grips with it, but the learning curve seems much higher than the stock apps. 

Nods, from my initial forrays into Mixing Station it seems more complex to setup ... but it seems that it can lead to an easier to use system ... and as you say, to allow iPhone usage it is the best (only?) route.

S''manth x

[ratman]

On 30/07/2023 at 11:21, Happy Jack said:

The one that catches my eye is the Soundcraft Ui24R. It ain't cheap, but it seems to tick all our boxes.

 

Does anyone have any experience with any of these? Or any that I've missed?

 

 

I've had a UI24R since 2019 and I found it to be a really good mixer. On those rare occasion that 16 inputs aren't enough the UI has 20, that's so useful. I'ts not strictly an app that you use to control it, you connect via IP address, so any device can control it with any browser. I have two old iPad 3 that I hand out to musicians which still work just fine. It has 8 mono (or up to 4 stereo) auxes, but I have assigned 1 of the 2 headphone outputs to be a stereo aux (hardwired for drums or keys) too. (The other headphone out might be able to send another aux out, but I'd have to check if that's correct) There is a learning curve but I like the control layout and options. There's a  really good FB user group, go there to read & learn all about it. It can be occasionally quirky but its awesome IMHO.

If mine died I'd buy another in a heartbeat. My main mixer now for functions and PA jobs is an Allen & Heath SQ5 but the Ui24R is a very capable back up for me. I use the UI for my originals band as it's so portable. We run 4 stereo mixes and I'm about to build a splitter rack for our gigs so we can control our on stage monitoring and the house engineer can do his/her thing out front.

I also have my trusty DL1608 which I rate highly too, great for smaller gigs. Mackie put together a lovely app to learn quickly & navigate.

[Happy Jack]

Nice one @ratman, do you also use the record-multitrack-to-USB function at all?

 

[ratman]

Oh yes. My originals band rehearses all with IEMs at our drummer's studio. We record everything we play via USB. Direct to Logic via USB works fine. To USB drive is awesome too, especially for gigs. The UI needs USB sticks with decent write speed to record multitracks without glitches. Lots of people on the FB group suggest various USB sticks that work for them. I tried a couple and got mixed results. The best stick for me was a particular Sandisk. I ended up getting a 500gb solid state drive, via a powered USB hub (because the UI USB doesn't put out much power) into the UI and it works perfectly every time.

[Phil Starr]

There is no way I'd go back to an analogue mixer. Just the size and the ability to store your settings rather than just remember them is enough to make the change. That's without all the extra bells and whistles and separate monitor mixes or each band member.

 

I'm afraid I chickened out of the XR18 learning curve and dodgy router and plumped for the RCF M18 which is a lot simpler, designed specifically for live mixing and has a router that works 100%. It sounds wonderful and there is virtually no learning curve, everything is pretty much completely intuitive. I had a mix set up in minutes straight out of the box. Having meters on everything means you don't need a line check with the audience having to endure endless one-two's I can see straight away if anyone has any hum or noise and if I have a signal and then I can just walk out into the auditorium to do the soundcheck starting with all the saved settings.

 

I can see the advantages of the XR18 but if you only want your mixer for live gigs with a pub band and have everything working first time then this is an easy transition from analogue. I'd buy another tomorrow.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Phil Starr

[Happy Jack]

7 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

 

I'm afraid I chickened out of the XR18 learning curve and dodgy router and plumped for the RCF M18 which is a lot simpler, designed specifically for live mixing and has a router that works 100%.

 

"This product is currently not available for purchase."

[Phil Starr]

6 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

 

"This product is currently not available for purchase."

I wonder why? It is still listed on RCF's catalogue. 

[Silvia Bluejay]

3 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

I wonder why? It is still listed on RCF's catalogue. 

 

It is, online. The website gives a list of shops where it can be bought.  https://www.rcf.it/en/where-to-buy/-/dealers/country/192

 

However...

 

Andertons: https://www.andertons.co.uk/search?search=rcf m18

 

AC Entertainment: https://www.ac-et.com/search/RCF+M18/

 

Gear4music: https://www.gear4music.com/search/?str_search_phrase=RCF+M18

 

Etc... 

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

There is no way I'd go back to an analogue mixer. Just the size and the ability to store your settings rather than just remember them is enough to make the change. That's without all the extra bells and whistles and separate monitor mixes or each band member.

 

Same here. In fact I had to - someone asked me to do sound for their band a few months ago on their mixer. I got there and it was an analogue mixer - ok, it was a reasonable one but it really is like going back to a 20 year old computer, you know it can do the job but everything is really hard!

 

 

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

I can see the advantages of the XR18 but if you only want your mixer for live gigs with a pub band and have everything working first time then this is an easy transition from analogue. I'd buy another tomorrow.

 

I never got the complication of the X-Air series myself, but you have to use what works for you. And as long as I never have to use an analogue mixer for anything other than mixing keyboards on the stuff in my office, I will be happy!

[skidder652003]

On 30/07/2023 at 11:21, Happy Jack said:

No one else is asking, so I will.

 

What about the alternatives to the Behringer XR18?

 

As near as I can make out, the Midas MR18 is identical and one os a clone of the other. The Mackie DL16S seems curiously limited for such an expensive piece of kit (paying for the badge?).

 

The one that catches my eye is the Soundcraft Ui24R. It ain't cheap, but it seems to tick all our boxes.

 

Does anyone have any experience with any of these? Or any that I've missed?

 

Zoom Live Track L-20 user here.

We had the Behringer XR18 about 5 years ago, although it is a fantastic bit of kit we kept it for about 3 months and moved it on as the lack of a physical fader type consol was off putting.

IMO the zoom has pretty much most of the benefits of the XR18 for our needs at least, I really like the ability to record 20 seperate tracks (stems) on an SD card straight off the console

to load into my DAW for mixing. Plus it can also be used with an ipad for remote walk about mixing like the XR18. Awesome preamps as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zySOqjdaMA

Edited July 31, 2023 by skidder652003

[Happy Jack]

14 hours ago, skidder652003 said:

Zoom Live Track L-20 user here.

We had the Behringer XR18 about 5 years ago, although it is a fantastic bit of kit we kept it for about 3 months and moved it on as the lack of a physical fader type consol was off putting.

IMO the zoom has pretty much most of the benefits of the XR18 for our needs at least, I really like the ability to record 20 seperate tracks (stems) on an SD card straight off the console

to load into my DAW for mixing. Plus it can also be used with an ipad for remote walk about mixing like the XR18. Awesome preamps as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zySOqjdaMA

 

It has taken me FAR longer than it should have to realise that the LiveTrak series will work only with iOS. 

 

Me and my bands are totally Androided ... there's no way we're going to move over to ruddy Apple just so we can buy a particular mixer. 

 

It's a shame because @Silvia Bluejay and I have a LOT of Zoom kit and we really rate their stuff, so it's really silly of them to turn iOS into a ghetto for this product.

 

[Silvia Bluejay]

7 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

 

It has taken me FAR longer than it should have to realise that the LiveTrak series will work only with iOS. 

 

Me and my bands are totally Androided ... there's no way we're going to move over to ruddy Apple just so we can buy a particular mixer. 

 

It's a shame because @Silvia Bluejay and I have a LOT of Zoom kit and we really rate their stuff, so it's really silly of them to turn iOS into a ghetto for this product.

 

... and before anyone says buy an iPad just for this purpose, and then you'll fall in love with the system and eventually switch over for everything, no we won't. Beautiful beasts, MacIntosh devices, loved working on them for what at the time was called DTP, rather pointless nowadays as they're so similar to PCs both in look and in functionality, but are usually quite a bit more expensive.

[SamIAm]

Just now, Silvia Bluejay said:

Beautiful beasts, MacIntosh devices, loved working on them for what at the time was called DTP, rather pointless nowadays as they're

I agree in part

Macs are expensive, but my experience is that they last longer (A friend of mine is retiring their Macbook Air ... after 15 years!).

I use a Windows machine at work, dual monitor, not quite state of the art hardware, it is not bad ... but my three year old Macbook runs rings around it!  And I do love the MacOS UI and the underlying *ix OS ... after nearly 30 years working on various systems from CPM to Windows I have found "Once you go Mac you;ll never go back" ... but I accept not all feel the same.

S'manth x

[Silvia Bluejay]

I'm currently working on a slow but perfectly viable 7-year-old PC that was a cheapo even at the time I bought it, and i don't think it's just about to die either - so it also depends on how good the user is at, er, not screwing the device up and keeping it happy for a long time. In the past, the winning aspect of Macs was the total compatibility. Now not so much, as the rest of the world has caught up.

 

Same for IoS v. Android. I hate a lot of things on Android but I haven't found ioS to be any better. 🤷‍♂️

 

[Dad3353]

I had to buy a so-called 'smartphone' so as to be able to handle bank confirmation sms stuff, which my (perfectly adequate for everything else...) old 'phone couldn't reply to. OK, I bought one, and I use it whenever I need to reply to these security things. That's all. I also have (I don't know why, nor where it came from...) a 'tablet' thingy, which has a bigger screen. If we were to invest in a mixer of the sort described in this topic, it would have to be usable with these, and any other 'phone/tablet thingies that I or my band mates own. I know no-one with any Apple stuff at all. I looked at this Zoom desk, and it would fit the bill, including its cost, but I'll look no further at it if it can only be remote controlled by stuff we neither have nor want. Thanks for the warning; I might have been tempted into an expensive mistake without that. 

[Woodinblack]

32 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

It has taken me FAR longer than it should have to realise that the LiveTrak series will work only with iOS.

 

That is an odd decision for a mixer - is there nothing else third party that works with it, like mixing station works for the X-Air series?

I understand music software being iOS only but not a control surface for a mixer, that is odd.

 

24 minutes ago, Silvia Bluejay said:

 Beautiful beasts, MacIntosh devices, loved working on them for what at the time was called DTP, rather pointless nowadays as they're so similar to PCs both in look and in functionality, but are usually quite a bit more expensive.

 

As someone that works with both - they aren't really slightly similar, and not any more expensive unless you are at the real budget end (ie, my work laptop is more expensive than my own macbook, while not being as good in many important areas).

But I wouldn't say to buy one just for a mixer though - there are many other mixers, and you already have an XR18 that you seem happy enough with.

 

 

[Silvia Bluejay]

To go back to the main topic, yes we have an XR18 which we are reasonably happy with, but not to the point of being wedded to it for our next purchase - hence our questions. Ideally next time we would want something with a proper user interface (to us, XAir Pro has been a pain from the start, fiddly, unintuitive, moody, etc. - you guys' MMV), something without the hardware/software glitches we have identified in our system with use, and something we don't need to hook up additional devices (router etc.) to in order to get reliable functionality.

 

@Dad3353, while I do understand, and until relatively recently shared, your aversion to smartphones and tablets, it would be unreasonable to expect a wireless desk to not use either or both. You would always need something with a screen and a means of communicating with the desk wirelessly. That would be, um, er, a tablet or a smartphone... 😉

Edited August 1, 2023 by Silvia Bluejay

[Woodinblack]

4 minutes ago, Silvia Bluejay said:

to us, XAir Pro has been a pain from the start, fiddly, unintuitive, moody, etc. - you guys' MMV

 

Can't really comment on that - I don't know what it is. From a quick google, it looks sort of like mixing station, which isn't something I use.

 

But agree, its worth looking at other things. I trust the X18 now, after all these years, it hasn't let me down, so something would have to be another step better to replace it. I also like the dual interface of iPad and Sliders, I find the hardware sliders good to use when I am actually playing (easier than jabbing the screen) and as a feedback on what is going on, but with the iPad to give setup, eq and more detailed changes.

 

4 minutes ago, Silvia Bluejay said:

 it would be unreasonable to expect a wireless desk to not use either or both. You would always need something with a screen and a means of communicating with the desk wirelessly.

 

Indeed - there isn't anywhere near as much advantage on a modern mixing desk if you couldn't control it with something else.

Even though I have the X-Control, and in theory I could setup everything with it, the whole EQ thing would be confusing and doesn't have the real time analyser which is good for finding feedback spikes etc.

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, Silvia Bluejay said:

...That would be, um, er, a tablet or a smartphone... 

 

...which, as I mentioned, we have. I won't buy another one just for that, though; anything must work with stuff we already have, which is all Android-powered. 

[skidder652003]

All good points folks.

I will say that the tactile control of hardware (ie sliders and knobs) on the Livetrack has been super useful for us as we don't have a soundman and our drummer puts the console by the side of his kit.

This is useful for quick adjustments to the sound once we get going if necessary, ie more vocal in the monitor, less guitar out front (the usual).

We do a sound check out front with the ipad (singer does this) but theres always usually a reason to adjust once we start and the zoom does this nice and quick.

We found faffing on a tablet midway through a gig was a bit of a pain/stressful.

Luckily we are all apple fans so no issues with the ipad but it is daft that they haven't incorporated Android.