Preamp pedal in to effects return

[msb]

The tone stack in my amp is a four band , with near surgical control , and when I bypass that my preamp has a three band eq with a fairly broad sweep.
Now that is much faster to dial in… 

[Clarky]

This thread got me thinking: do all you users of decent preamps, eg BassRig SVT or Fender emulators, Sansamp or Broughton SVT pedal, go through the effects return? If not then surely your bass is going through two tone stacks which adds two kinds of colour and  kind of negates trying to sound like an SVT/Fender etc?

[SteveXFR]

4 minutes ago, Clarky said:

This thread got me thinking: do all you users of decent preamps, eg BassRig SVT or Fender emulators, Sansamp or Broughton SVT pedal, go through the effects return? If not then surely your bass is going through two tone stacks which adds two kinds of colour and  kind of negates trying to sound like an SVT/Fender etc?

 

I think quite a few use the DI out from the preamp pedal and don't use an amp on stage. 

My Le Bass even has a cab simulation on the DI out. I use it for home practice and it sounds awesome. 

Our band is recording a demo next week and I'll just use the DI output to record the bass

Edited February 3, 2023 by SteveXFR

[northcountrybob]

 

On the MK1 Terror Bass the loop send and return are both valve. It's not the best design. The send is a typical 12AX7 gain stage and driven from the plate of a tube (This also feeds the DI out, which is opamp buffered but IIRC fairly spicy!) It won't be very low output impedance. Using only the return bypasses the preamp but then the signal goes into the second half of V2 which is set up as an AC coupled cathode follower. As your signal goes into the return it's hitting a capacitor to block DC, then a 68k resistor, then a 250K master volume pot. So the input impedance isn't massive. The tone stack is passive, so the front label "cut and boost" on the EQ is a bit misleading. 

 

I've used sansamp BDDI and now use an Origin Bassrig. If I use it into something like my markbass little mark III or most other loaner amp, I start with that amp's EQ "flat". With other amps, I'm debating putting a splitter on my board to run a pre-preamp signal to a nice amp if I want... if the amp doesn't have an FX return. Like an AD200B 

 

 

 

 

[mario_buoninfante]

8 hours ago, northcountrybob said:

 

On the MK1 Terror Bass the loop send and return are both valve. It's not the best design. The send is a typical 12AX7 gain stage and driven from the plate of a tube (This also feeds the DI out, which is opamp buffered but IIRC fairly spicy!) It won't be very low output impedance. Using only the return bypasses the preamp but then the signal goes into the second half of V2 which is set up as an AC coupled cathode follower. As your signal goes into the return it's hitting a capacitor to block DC, then a 68k resistor, then a 250K master volume pot. So the input impedance isn't massive. The tone stack is passive, so the front label "cut and boost" on the EQ is a bit misleading. 

 

I've used sansamp BDDI and now use an Origin Bassrig. If I use it into something like my markbass little mark III or most other loaner amp, I start with that amp's EQ "flat". With other amps, I'm debating putting a splitter on my board to run a pre-preamp signal to a nice amp if I want... if the amp doesn't have an FX return. Like an AD200B 

 

 

 

 

I don't have the amp, but I recently watched a video on the official page where they say only the send goes through the valve, the return doesn't

[mario_buoninfante]

 

[Wilson_51_]

8 hours ago, Clarky said:

This thread got me thinking: do all you users of decent preamps, eg BassRig SVT or Fender emulators, Sansamp or Broughton SVT pedal, go through the effects return? If not then surely your bass is going through two tone stacks which adds two kinds of colour and  kind of negates trying to sound like an SVT/Fender etc?

 

I believe the Bassrig super vintage has an "amp out" section on the pedal to try and reduce this issue. with a high and low frequency knobs and horn cut switch.

!

[msb]

With Monique I totally bypass the front end and go in the effect return.

[Jonesy]

I go through the effects return and bypass my amps pre. Both my bands have pretty different sounds, so I use a rusty box for the noisy originals band and a tech 21 vt for the blues covers band.

[northcountrybob]

On 03/02/2023 at 17:42, mario_buoninfante said:

I don't have the amp, but I recently watched a video on the official page where they say only the send goes through the valve, the return doesn't

 

Apologies, I was on about the MK1 which is different. It's pretty much an AD200 preamp. The MK2 I think uses JFET's and valves but the loop most likely does bypass the preamp exactly like Ade says in that vid. The MK2 is quite a bit different I think. The schematic for the MK1 is kicking around on the interwebs 

 

On 03/02/2023 at 17:58, Wilson_51_ said:

 

I believe the Bassrig super vintage has an "amp out" section on the pedal to try and reduce this issue. with a high and low frequency knobs and horn cut switch.

!

 

Yeah it does. The DI has cab sim on it, but the amp out doesn't. The pedal does recreate a whole SVT though, including output section, and thats the amp out signal. So it's interesting using it into the front of an amp like the AD200 that isn't really flat... It definitely doesn't sound bad though!

[SteveXFR]

Last night I ran the Le Bass preamp in to the Orange effects return and it sounded so much better than running it in to the front end of the Orange. Maybe what I really need is just a power amp rather than a bass amp

[BassmanPaul]

13 minutes ago, SteveXFR said:

. Maybe what I really need is just a power amp rather than a bass amp

It's what I do.

[paul_5]

I always ever used my Ampeg svp pro preamp into the fx return of any other amp when we gigged with shared kit. 
other bassists were happy I didn’t change their settings, I was happy I didn’t have to.

[SteveXFR]

Would any 350w + power amp do the job or is there such a thing as a bass power amp?

[paul_5]

Pretty much anything will do the job. Obviously check that the desired output is OK with the impedance of your cabs - a 500W amp will deliver 500W into a 4Ω cabinet, but you'll get about 350W into 8Ω, and even less into a 16Ω cabinet.

[Baloney Balderdash]

Well, my main setup is "amp-less", or perhaps more correctly stated pedal based.

 

So yes.

 

I use a combination of several gain and EQ stages, among those 2 tube preamps, one of them also functioning as a DI, and then a faux, EQ based, cab sim, which basically is just a LPF, then from that tube preamp with DI functionality either into a mixer, used a headphones preamp, and a fairly high end studio grade, that is FRFR, set of headphones, for home practice, or into the Effects Return, basically being poweramp input, of a 160W Peavey guitar combo, with the build in 12" speaker disconnected and instead hooked up to a FRFR passive PA speaker, 15" woofer/mids driver 1.7" high frequency tweeter/high mids horn, with great low end representation, for band rehearsals/jams/back gear gigs, or the PA system of a given venue for playing live gigs otherwise.

 

Works great, the main advantage being consistency of tone whether I practice at home, jam or rehearse with band, play live or record, and another great advantage being flexibility of tailoring tone, specifically in mine which, as said, is made of a combination of several EQ and gain stages, but while keeping it primarily analog.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[SteveXFR]

9 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Well, my main setup is "amp-less", or perhaps more correctly stated pedal based.

 

So yes.

 

I use a combination of several gain and EQ stages, among those 2 tube preamps, one of them also functioning as a DI, and a faux, EQ based, cab sim, which basically is just a LPF, then from that tube preamp with DI functionality either into a mixer, used a headphones preamp, and a fairly high end studio grade, that is FRFR, set of headphones, for home practice, or into the Effects Return, basically being poweramp input, of a 160W Peavey guitar combo, with the build in 12" speaker disconnected and instead hooked up to a FRFR passive PA speaker, 15" woofer/mids driver 1.7" high frequency tweeter/high mids horn, with great low end representation, for band rehearsals/jams/back gear gigs, or the PA system of a given venue for playing live gigs otherwise.

 

Works great, the main advantage being consistency of tone whether I practice at home, jam or rehearse with band, play live or record, and another great advantage being flexibility of tailoring tone, specifically in mine which, as said, is made of a combination of several EQ and gain stages, but while keeping it primarily analog.

 

Thanks. That's a lot of info but I think it all makes sense in my swede.

Which tube preamp are you using?

[Baloney Balderdash]

15 hours ago, SteveXFR said:

 

Thanks. That's a lot of info but I think it all makes sense in my swede.

Which tube preamp are you using?

 

Well, it's admittedly kind of complicated, but have a look at my forum profile where I have my whole signal chain listed.

 

 

However I am in the middle of rearranging my setup so that would be the old setup listed, used for a Harley Benton GuitarBass (take on the Fender Bass VI concept), tuned in F# standard tuning, that is 10 half steps bellow regular 6 string guitar E standard tuning, played with a pick, to suit playing my 28.6" scale Ibanez Mikro Bass instead, also tuned in F# standard tuning, that is 2 half steps above regular 4 string bass E standard tuning, but played using my fingers, better.

 

So far I've settled with almost the exact same setup for my basic clean tone, except for the Joyo Oxford Sound having been swapped out for a Behringer GDI21, Tech 21 GT2 clone, with the Drive knob just barely above minimum position, which in practice would translate to just on the verge of breakup, the Treble control (shelving filter, freq unknown) at about 11 o'clock and the Bass control (shelving filter, freq unknown) at about 1 o'clock, using the California (Mesa Boogie) amp emulation setting, Clean mode, and miked speaker emulation mode on Center position, and then the Joyo Orange Juice that was placed in one of the effect loops of the Boss LS-2, blended with "clean/dry" signal, being replaced for a Joyo American Sound (still blended with "clean/dry" signal via the LS-2), Tech 21 Blonde clone, the gain dialed in to just on the verge of breakup, a wide curve around 800Hz boosted about +3dB pre gain stage, and a wide curve around 400Hz boosted about +2dB post gain stage, finally the 160 Comp compressor model at the very start of the always on patch used on the Zoom MS-70CDR now having been removed and the very subtle compression instead being handled by the EHX Black Finger, which primary task though still is to function as a tube preamp stage. 

 

Might be subject to change, as I am still in the process of rearranging my pedal setup, but this is as least what at this point seems like a quite likely final setup as far as my basic "clean" tone goes.

 

Oh, and also, the Moksy XP booster at the very start of the signal chain, right after the bass, now has both internal dip switches disengaged, which would translate to a subtle low end boost, and is run on 18V, the latter resulting in a bit more clarity, and the TC Electronic Sub'N'Up Mini pedal following it, used exclusively for a 1 octave up effect, is also now not quite an always on effect anymore, but more of an almost always on effect.

 

All in all resulting in a bit more mellow, or rather perhaps a bit less aggressive, tone with overall a bit more low end, better suited for finger picking techniques.

 

 

I apologize for the wall of text, but yes, as said, kind of complicated, and at least I tried to give as thorough an answer as possible. 

 

Hopefully it was of more help than confusion.

 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[mario_buoninfante]

4 hours ago, SteveXFR said:

Last night I ran the Le Bass preamp in to the Orange effects return and it sounded so much better than running it in to the front end of the Orange. Maybe what I really need is just a power amp rather than a bass amp

 

Some good info here too

 

 

 

[Downunderwonder]

4 hours ago, SteveXFR said:

Would any 350w + power amp do the job or is there such a thing as a bass power amp?

Aside from the non certified stuff there's the Quilter Bass Block but it has optional EQ and overdrive if you drop the master volume and crank the input. That would be handy if your preamp déjour ever bit the dust.

[Baloney Balderdash]

14 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

 

Well, it's admittedly kind of complicated, but have a look at my forum profile where I have my whole signal chain listed.

 

 

However I am in the middle of rearranging my setup so that would be the old setup listed, used for a Harley Benton GuitarBass (take on the Fender Bass VI concept), tuned in F# standard tuning, that is 10 half steps bellow regular 6 string guitar E standard tuning, played with a pick, to suit playing my 28.6" scale Ibanez Mikro Bass instead, also tuned in F# standard tuning, that is 2 half steps above regular 4 string bass E standard tuning, but played using my fingers, better.

 

So far I've settled with almost the exact same setup for my basic clean tone, except for the Joyo Oxford Sound having been swapped out for a Behringer GDI21, Tech 21 GT2 clone, with the Drive knob just barely above minimum position, which in practice would translate to just on the verge of breakup, the Treble control (shelving filter, freq unknown) at about 11 o'clock and the Bass control (shelving filter, freq unknown) at about 1 o'clock, using the California (Mesa Boogie) amp emulation setting, Clean mode, and miked speaker emulation mode on Center position, and then the Joyo Orange Juice that was placed in one of the effect loops of the Boss LS-2, blended with "clean/dry" signal, being replaced for a Joyo American Sound (still blended with "clean/dry" signal via the LS-2), Tech 21 Blonde clone, the gain dialed in to just on the verge of breakup, a wide curve around 800Hz boosted about +3dB pre gain stage, and a wide curve around 400Hz boosted about +2dB post gain stage, finally the 160 Comp compressor model at the very start of the always on patch used on the Zoom MS-70CDR now having been removed and the very subtle compression instead being handled by the EHX Black Finger, which primary task though still is to function as a tube preamp stage. 

 

Might be subject to change, as I am still in the process of rearranging my pedal setup, but this is as least what at this point seems like a quite likely final setup as far as my basic "clean" tone goes.

 

Oh, and also, the Moksy XP booster at the very start of the signal chain, right after the bass, now has both internal dip switches disengaged, which would translate to a subtle low end boost, and is run on 18V, the latter resulting in a bit more clarity, and the TC Electronic Sub'N'Up Mini pedal following it, used exclusively for a 1 octave up effect, is also now not quite an always on effect anymore, but more of an almost always on effect.

 

All in all resulting in a bit more mellow, or rather perhaps a bit less aggressive, tone with overall a bit more low end, better suited for finger picking techniques.

 

 

I apologize for the wall of text, but yes, as said, kind of complicated, and at least I tried to give as thorough an answer as possible. 

 

Hopefully it was of more help than confusion.

 

 

@SteveXFR I have just updated the signal chain listed in my forum profile to reflect these changes, so should be a bit easier for you to get a proper overview now, without crosschecking needed:

https://www.basschat.co.uk/profile/50585-baloney-balderdash/

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[SteveXFR]

1 hour ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

@SteveXFR I have just updated the signal chain listed in my forum profile to reflect these changes, so should be a bit easier for you to get a proper overview now, without crosschecking needed:

https://www.basschat.co.uk/profile/50585-baloney-balderdash/

 

 

Excuse my incompetence but where is it in your profile? I can't seem to find it

[Baloney Balderdash]

2 hours ago, SteveXFR said:

 

Excuse my incompetence but where is it in your profile? I can't seem to find it

 

Right below the picture of my previous pedal board/setup:

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Reggaebass]

23 hours ago, SteveXFR said:

Maybe what I really need is just a power amp rather than a bass amp

Don’t know if it’s of any use to you Steve but there’s a power amp in the for sale section, I don’t know much about them but it looks good 

[BassmanPaul]

On 29/01/2023 at 09:58, Happy Jack said:

 

 

And no, I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA where those seals came from. 😂

 

But did they give you their seal of approval?

Edited February 24, 2023 by BassmanPaul