Getting into Jazz - where to start

[yorick]

Buy a cheap drum kit, set up a sound recorder, throw the drums down a flight of stairs and that's your percussion taken care of....

[synaesthesia]

There are two ways to be a jazzer. One is to be a jazz snob, and the other is to be an open minded musician. Most jazzers are somewhere in between,.....Nothing really really wrong with either in regards to making music, but there is a proclivity towards closed zeitgeist in the former. There you'd have your Wynton Marsalis, your early George Benson, your Bitches Brew haters, your neighbourhood geriatric dixieland band etc....and on the other corner you'd have your later George Benson, John McL, Chick Corea, Herbie H, Brecker Bros, Steve Swallow, ...

Either way you cannot help but dive in and immerse yourself into jazz history. When I was learning music, I had a mate who conversed with Larry Coryell and he wanted to know if he really needed to learn early jazz forms to play jazz fusion. Coryell had a lot to say about learning from Jazz history. It's a lot of splashing about when you start but learn who's who, who's done what, learn the common forms, the phrases in various modalities of 'jazz', - this is not to suggest that you have to perform historical jazz, but you be a lot wiser as a contemporary musician. Many musos are locked on one side or the other of the blue note, some are still on the b5 side of things and the modern lydian mode fellas don't know that the #4 was never the dominant tonality in early jazz.

If anything irks me is the limited view most so called jazz musos have. Mention latin bass and they can only name Anthony Jackson. It's as if Showaddywaddy were really from the 50's.

Edited April 6, 2009 by synaesthesia

[XB26354]

[quote name='lowdown' post='455620' date='Apr 6 2009, 04:13 PM']Anyone fancy sitting in on this big band?
There is a hard act to follow mind.

Garry[/quote]

This is bordering on film/TV theme music from the 70's a la Quincy Jones - and despite transcribing it (and the whole of One More Once) it's more like latiny jazz with a backbeat. Anthony Jackson plays a quasi-walking line over the solo section I guess...

It doesn't really matter what anyone thinks about jazz - it is there for you to take it or leave it if you want. Go to some decent gigs, get some books on the subject (e.g. The Jazz Theory Book) and dip your toes in until you either find something you like or hate it all and give up! I find nowadays that the Jamey Aebersold play-alongs do a lot more for your playing if you want to try things and make mistakes in a low pressure situation than a bad jam session. OK, they're not the same as playing live but you do get to practice tunes of all types (as well as turnarounds and other jazz specifics) with some real bad-ass jazzers. Maybe Miles' playing grates for some people because like Jaco he's been endlessly copied - I've certainly played with plenty of trumpeters that did bad Miles impressions :-)

[XB26354]

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='455888' date='Apr 6 2009, 09:35 PM']If anything irks me is the limited view most so called jazz musos have. Mention latin bass and they can only name Anthony Jackson. It's as if Showaddywaddy were really from the 50's.[/quote]
eh?
I'd like to think I've listened to a fair chunk of salsa, island, brazilian and south american music (and played a fair bit of it) and I've never heard anyone say that...

[XB26354]

[quote name='lowdown' post='455620' date='Apr 6 2009, 04:13 PM']Anyone fancy sitting in on this big band?
There is a hard act to follow mind.



Garry[/quote]
Oh and check where AJ screws up at 1'04" even the best miss it sometimes!

Edited April 6, 2009 by XB26354

[lowdown]

[quote name='XB26354' post='455920' date='Apr 6 2009, 10:16 PM']Oh and check where AJ screws up at 1'04" even the best miss it sometimes![/quote]

Blimmey, i bet the one and only Latin Bassist cried himself to sleep that night.

Garry

Edited April 6, 2009 by lowdown

[leschirons]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCtGV3yCcXE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCtGV3yCcXE[/url]

I know this is not what some would call jazz, it's old and there's some big hair about and maybe a bit twee in places but there you go. I love it. It's got a real feel good factor about this sort of music and would kill to play in an outfit like this.

[lowdown]

[quote name='leschirons' post='456098' date='Apr 7 2009, 08:45 AM'][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCtGV3yCcXE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCtGV3yCcXE[/url]

I know this is not what some would call jazz, it's old and there's some big hair about and maybe a bit twee in places but there you go. I love it. It's got a real feel good factor about this sort of music and would kill to play in an outfit like this.[/quote]

Good one...
I love this band.

Garry

[Hutton]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='455507' date='Apr 6 2009, 02:42 PM']AAAAAAAARGH!

If you want to know about jazz, stay away from jam sessions that play Canteloupe Island, Watermelon Man, Chameleon, C Jam Blues and So What!

Sorry, Spike, I know what you are saying is probably true but these jam sessions are, in my experience, rarely attended by anyone that can actually play any credible jazz. Its a tragedy but most good players would either be gigging or practising at home. These tunes are horrible (I actually refuse to play the first two - ever - and the others are rarely allowed out). They are seen by many as a great introduction to jazz but they are enough to put anyone off, particularly when played by people with bad time, no technique and no credible vocabulary. I too often see people at these sessions who have not yet dealt witht he fundamentals of their instruments and who are, to all intents and purposes, delusional.

Just imagine. If you were interested in seeing what jazz was about and went to one of these sessions as your forst experience; you would be put off it for life.

Find something more worthy of your time.

As for suggestions of what to listen to: look for my GOD, I LOVE JAZZ thread here. There are 100s of suggestions, from me and others.[/quote]
Jams are a great way for musicians to enjoy themselves in a social and informal setting. Therefore, it doesn't matter if you are Coltrane or just a beginner. It is also an excellent opportunity for more experienced musicians to share their ideas with beginners, unless of course they are elitist and only want to play with "proficient" musicians.
I wouldn't say songs like Watermelon Man and Cantaloupe Island are not credible jazz no matter who is playing them. Herbie Hancock's reputation speaks for itself, whether you like it or not is subjective.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Hutton' post='456104' date='Apr 7 2009, 08:51 AM']Jams are a great way for musicians to enjoy themselves in a social and informal setting.[/quote]

And for guys starting out, a chance to meet other players...
They aint all bad.

Garry

[leschirons]

[quote name='Hutton' post='456104' date='Apr 7 2009, 07:51 AM']Jams are a great way for musicians to enjoy themselves in a social and informal setting. Therefore, it doesn't matter if you are Coltrane or just a beginner. It is also an excellent opportunity for more experienced musicians to share their ideas with beginners, unless of course they are elitist and only want to play with "proficient" musicians.
I wouldn't say songs like Watermelon Man and Cantaloupe Island are not credible jazz no matter who is playing them. Herbie Hancock's reputation speaks for itself, whether you like it or not is subjective.[/quote]

Spot on.

[urb]

[quote name='Hutton' post='456104' date='Apr 7 2009, 08:51 AM']Jams are a great way for musicians to enjoy themselves in a social and informal setting. Therefore, it doesn't matter if you are Coltrane or just a beginner. It is also an excellent opportunity for more experienced musicians to share their ideas with beginners, unless of course they are elitist and only want to play with "proficient" musicians.
I wouldn't say songs like Watermelon Man and Cantaloupe Island are not credible jazz no matter who is playing them. Herbie Hancock's reputation speaks for itself, whether you like it or not is subjective.[/quote]

Anoher +1 on this - in spite of some ropey stuff on occassion I've been to quite a few jams here in London where you generally get some very good players (not necessarily pros) who are happy to play with whoever and if there's any one sure fie way to improve your playing it's by playing with better musicians than yourself.

As it happens I wne to my local jam on Sunday, that was celebrating its 10th birthday, and guess what? The regular bassist hadn't turned up... the place was rammed to the gills and the gig wasn't happening. I was asked to step in at the last minute and do the first 40mins - playing tunes I'd mostly never played before in front of a packed venue. Not easy but a lot of fun and if I'd not bothered to go and heard afterwards that the regular bassist was half and hour late then I'd have been gutted I didn't go. Jams are very hit and miss, but if you can find a good one it can be a great place to network and throw yourself in at the deep end - it's always a good learning experience though the musical results can vary!

M

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='455507' date='Apr 6 2009, 02:42 PM']AAAAAAAARGH!

If you want to know about jazz, stay away from jam sessions that play Canteloupe Island, Watermelon Man, Chameleon, C Jam Blues and So What![/quote]

I actually quite like a few of those songs, Chemeleon especially and Herbie Hancock still plays it so it must be good .

We play 4 of those in my one band, we don't play C jam blues however. We play them because people like to hear them, they go down well at gigs with people who aren't necessarily 'jazz lovers'. We have two graduates from Birmingham conservatoire jazz course and the trombone player is a current student on the classical music course, the rest of us are pro and semi pro players.

[Bilbo]

It is not that they are inately crap - it is that there are 53 million songs out there and everyone playes those 5.

Punters like them because they are passive consumers not because these compositions are particularly good. There are literally thousands of tunes that have equal levels of immediacy and are easy to play but, because people can't be arsed to look for them or to transcribe them/prepare charts, they never get an airing.

Re: your two graduates from Birmingham conservatoire jazz course and the trombone player on the classical music course - in my experience, this is no guarantee of anything. People who get qualifications as players can be superb but they can also be pretty average if they lack the passion. As a self-trained musician, I am sometimes stunned by the poor playing of conservatory trained musicians.

Re: snobbery - it is not the elitist in me that makes me dislike most jam sessions, it is the unwillingness of the British musicians to say 'go away and practice some more' to the more dysfunctional attendees. If someone plays like Sanborn, I will play with them, even thought he is not my favourite player. It is when they play like Sanborn's dog that I get hacked off. I suspect the standard in London is higher than it is in Ipswich

[synaesthesia]

I don't know where the jazz jams are these days, but they are a good place to meet other musos of various capabilities. When I lived in Madchester in the early 90s, I used to go the PJ Bells Blues Bar which was great for networking. met several musos, got some work , did some recordings, brought a mate of mine down, he got work - did a short tour etc....They were never really proper jazz jams as the great equaliser was to play vamps over which you take extended solos.....Depending on what you want, you can find a conversation on how to navigate Cantelopue to Giant Steps, Got a Match to how chick Corea does someday my prince will come.

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='456217' date='Apr 7 2009, 10:41 AM']It is not that they are inately crap - it is that there are 53 million songs out there and everyone playes those 5.[/quote]

I totally agree with you, I personally hate playing 'So what', I've played it so many times.

My point is this though. When I first started playing jazz about 12 years ago, I found it really hard to find people to play with. Players at the only jam in my area were far more advanced than me. It was a catch 22 situation. I'd never played jazz so people wouldn't let me play with them, which meant that I wasn't getting any playing experience, so I couldn't play with people.

I see it this way, if you're playing with people, then that's great. If they're better than you then that's even better, and who cares what tunes they're playing. 'So what' is actually quite a hard tune to play, you have to count the bars as you're playing, 16 bars of Dm7, 8 bars of Ebm7, 8 bars of Dm7.

Basically playing with someone is better than sitting at home practising, and a lot of jazz musicians can be very......shall we say 'set in their ways'. "You don't play jazz on an electric bass" is something that I've heard on a couple of occassions.

Edited April 7, 2009 by 6stringbassist

[Rich]

[quote name='The Funk' post='455061' date='Apr 6 2009, 12:21 AM']And don't bother with Mike Stern. The guy's exactly what's wrong with jazz today IMO.[/quote]
Been to a Mike Stern gig? Nah, didn't think so Fabulous, exciting stuff. But hey, like everyone's been saying, it's one man's meat and all that. You like Satchmo, but he sends me to sleep. That's what's so great about jazz as a genre, there's summat for everyone.

Kenny G, now [i]there's[/i] someone who really [u]is[/u] everything that's wrong with jazz today. His soprano sax should be stretched out into a long thin wire, with which he should then be strangled

[XB26354]

[quote name='6stringbassist' post='456329' date='Apr 7 2009, 12:39 PM']Basically playing with someone is better than sitting at home practising, and a lot of jazz musicians can be very......shall we say 'set in their ways'. "You don't play jazz on an electric bass" is something that I've heard on a couple of occassions.[/quote]

But you DON'T play jazz on an electric bass, and especially not a 6-string bass! (see my signature)
Seriously, the reason why many jazzers think you can't or shouldn't play jazz on electric bass is that most players just don't swing like double bass players do - something to do with the depth of tone, and the more subtle sound of double bass. Being a more physical and somewhat harder instrument to play perhaps players get more out of each note... my number one tip to someone dtarting to learn to play walking lines - play quarter notes and nothing else. Only when you can really swing should you start to add the skips and triplets etc. and VERY sparingly.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Rich' post='456341' date='Apr 7 2009, 12:52 PM']Been to a Mike Stern gig?
Kenny G, now [i]there's[/i] someone who really [u]is[/u] everything that's wrong with jazz today. His soprano sax should be stretched out into a long thin wire, with which he should then be strangled [/quote]

Been to a couple of Mike Stern gigs - Outstanding!

Well as for Kenny G....
Pat Metheny had something to say.
You might well all know the story, but i love this bit.

"But when Kenny G decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has ever lived by spewing his lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, f***ed up playing all over one of the great Louis's tracks (even one of his lesser ones), he did something that I would not have imagined possible. He, in one move, through his unbelievably pretentious and calloused musical decision to embark on this most cynical of musical paths, sh*t all over the graves of all the musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out there on the road for years and years developing their own music inspired by the standards of grace that Louis Armstrong brought to every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician. By disrespecting Louis, his legacy and by default, everyone who has ever tried to do something positive with improvised music and what it can be, Kenny G has created a new low point in modern culture - something that we all should be totally embarrassed about - and afraid of. We ignore this, "let it slide", at our own peril"

Best rant ever.

Garry

[The Funk]

[quote name='Rich' post='456341' date='Apr 7 2009, 12:52 PM']Been to a Mike Stern gig? Nah, didn't think so Fabulous, exciting stuff. But hey, like everyone's been saying, it's one man's meat and all that. You like Satchmo, but he sends me to sleep. That's what's so great about jazz as a genre, there's summat for everyone.

Kenny G, now [i]there's[/i] someone who really [u]is[/u] everything that's wrong with jazz today. His soprano sax should be stretched out into a long thin wire, with which he should then be strangled [/quote]

Kenny G - the Michael Bolton/Nigel Kennedy of saxophone.

I've turned down every opportunity to see Mike Stern. I'm not paying £25+ to see someone whose music I've never liked.

I'm not claiming to be even in the same building as him technically with my bratty comments (he's a million miles ahead of me) but he's a prime example of a guy with the heart of a rock guitarist and the head of a jazz musician, who then doesn't have any place to go or anything to say. And then there's the guy's tone - it really makes me ill.

I'd love to hear him on acoustic. I bet it's a totally different story. A couple of later fusion guitarists have won me over when I've heard them unaccompanied on acoustic. (Not that I dislike fusion guitarists - Al di Meola, John McLoughlin and Larry Corryell are wicked.)

[Rich]

[quote name='The Funk' post='456412' date='Apr 7 2009, 02:04 PM']Kenny G - the Michael Bolton/Nigel Kennedy of saxophone.[/quote]


[quote]I'm not paying £25+ to see someone whose music I've never liked.[/quote]
Fair enough, neither would I. It's a hell of a gig though.

[quote]I'd love to hear him on acoustic. I bet it's a totally different story. A couple of later fusion guitarists have won me over when I've heard them unaccompanied on acoustic. (Not that I dislike fusion guitarists - Al di Meola, John McLoughlin and Larry Corryell are wicked.)[/quote]
There's a really lovely acoustic tune on his latest album. And yes, totally different.

[The Funk]

[quote name='Alun' post='454973' date='Apr 5 2009, 10:24 PM']If you're coming from a rock background, maybe start with some guitar based stuff like Mike Stern[/quote]

[quote name='urb' post='455129' date='Apr 6 2009, 08:38 AM']I'm surprised you don't likr Stern, I know he can be a bit repetitive but he always has a great rhythm section[/quote]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='455147' date='Apr 6 2009, 09:15 AM']Stern, for instance, is widely regarded to be repetitive but he is a particularly sophisticated composer and his soloing is a lot deeper than a lot of people think (try and write some down, you'll be astonished).[/quote]

[quote name='Rich' post='456341' date='Apr 7 2009, 12:52 PM']Been to a Mike Stern gig? Nah, didn't think so Fabulous, exciting stuff.[/quote]

[quote name='lowdown' post='456375' date='Apr 7 2009, 01:30 PM']Been to a couple of Mike Stern gigs - Outstanding![/quote]

Fine. I'm going to pay the £25 for the next Mike Stern gig in London to see what you're all on about!

[XB26354]

Saw him year before last at Ronnie's with Anthony Jackson, Dave Weckl and Eric someone on sax. Great, great playing but I can't stand that horrible chorused guitar sound. He had stereo amps and it still sounded thin and crappy. Each to their own I guess but I can't imagine why anyone would like that sound and continue to use it for 25+ years, especially someone with so much talent - guess he likes it!

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='XB26354' post='456487' date='Apr 7 2009, 03:13 PM']Saw him year before last at Ronnie's with Anthony Jackson, Dave Weckl and Eric someone on sax. Great, great playing but I can't stand that horrible chorused guitar sound. He had stereo amps and it still sounded thin and crappy. Each to their own I guess but I can't imagine why anyone would like that sound and continue to use it for 25+ years, especially someone with so much talent - guess he likes it![/quote]

Marienthal.

I guess saxophone players don't matter much in the world of electric bass players for whom Mike Stern is so high up on a pedestal. Good player, but it quite obvious where the slant is on this forum. FWIW, I have been listening to Mike Stern since he was with BS&T, and I've met the man with Dennis Chambers in '93. Again good player, but all this "you don't like or don't know Mike Stern?" bashing is amusing to say the least in the face of 'Eric someone.'

[GreeneKing]

Is it only me that gets a shiver up my spine when I hear that distinctive Miles Davis tone?

Jazz is such a diverse genre. Sonny Rollins is a favourite of mine.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF5Qtv9wy2k"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF5Qtv9wy2k[/url]

Oh, and hang on in there for the bass solo!

Edited April 7, 2009 by GreeneKing