Vintage Fenders

[Hellzero]

Look at these 3 rear headstocks and the discrepancy between the tuners linked to defective cutting presses.

 

Some even have that step on the lower side, when some don't, and some are a mix of these features.

 

And one have 3 tuners with this feature, but not the 4.

 

That said, it's very interesting!

 

Thanks again @wateroftyne, really!

 

 

 

[ossyrocks]

56 minutes ago, Reggaebass said:

Well spotted , I’ve been looking and it appears that they stopped using the stepped one in late 65 

This is a new one on me.

 

But, I've been through as many basses as I can be bothered to look at on Andy Baxter's site and I think I agree, but it got a bit hazy after so many.

 

What did strike me though, was that if they did have the "step" or "notch" (we need to decide how to describe this), they had a full set of them. There are no examples on Andy Baxter's site of basses which have a mix of both styles.

[Reggaebass]

Here’s a picture of the underside of a set from 63 , interesting it is just a contour/step to the edge 

[Alanko]

How would the tuner baseplates have been formed? Just milled out of sheet metal, given a basic smoothing then nickel or chrome plated? Or punched out with a die?

 

How would the deformity occur? It looks like a cutting tool took an extra nibble, or the start or runout of some sort of pass with a rotary tool. 

[rwillett]

I would expect early 60s metalwork to be stamped out on a machine. 

 

These are fairly cheaply made with bent over tags to lock the barrels on. That's not a comment to annoy people but a reflection on how things were done then 

 

Whilst you could mill them, the costs would be 50-100x the cost of stamping and bending. Cheap CNC did not exist in the 60s. 

 

I would assume a different stamping machine did the tiny notch and these could be just a different die used at the time. It could have been designed to fit against something else for orientation and Leo did a deal. Or it could be something else. 

 

Rob

[JazzyJ]

Well, thanks again for all your collective knowledge, I doubt that I would have  noticed in a month of Sundays re the tuner baseplate stamping.

It is reassuring to know that I didn't buy a 'load of junk' as one USA forum contributer suggested.

 

[Reggaebass]

1 minute ago, JazzyJ said:

load of junk' as one USA forum contributer suggested.

They obviously didn’t know what they was talking about Jazzy, it’s a beauty 

[JazzyJ]

Kings Rd Vintage sent me the photos of the internals all those years ago but no mention on the neck plate discrepancy.

That really was my only concern when I checked it out. I'm not going to change it though. 

 

 

[rwillett]

11 minutes ago, JazzyJ said:

It is reassuring to know that I didn't buy a 'load of junk' as one USA forum contributer suggested.

More than happy to take it off your hands at a "load of junk" price if you want Absolute beauty as already said.

 

I love little things like this 'notch'. I doubt I'd ever notice it if it wasn't for other people....

[JazzyJ]

5 minutes ago, rwillett said:

More than happy to take it off your hands at a "load of junk" price if you want  

I'll bring it along to your bass bash next year Rob.

[Hellzero]

2 hours ago, rwillett said:

I would expect early 60s metalwork to be stamped out on a machine. 

 

These are fairly cheaply made with bent over tags to lock the barrels on. That's not a comment to annoy people but a reflection on how things were done then 

 

Whilst you could mill them, the costs would be 50-100x the cost of stamping and bending. Cheap CNC did not exist in the 60s. 

 

I would assume a different stamping machine did the tiny notch and these could be just a different die used at the time. It could have been designed to fit against something else for orientation and Leo did a deal. Or it could be something else. 

 

Rob

It was a drill (what I called cutting) press that was used to make this plates back then at the Kluson factory.

 

And it's more than probable that Leo seized the opportunity to buy these "defective" machine heads lot at a fair price as what he used for his instruments has always been the cheapest possible.

[briansbrew]

42 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

It was a drill (what I called cutting) press that was used to make this plates back then at the Kluson factory.

 

And it's more than probable that Leo seized the opportunity to buy these "defective" machine heads lot at a fair price as what he used for his instruments has always been the cheapest possible.

I agree, the die press tool had a defect which would account for the ridge, no othe reason for it to be there, more than likely they had 2 machines...

Edited 13 hours ago by briansbrew

[Mrbigstuff]

3 minutes ago, briansbrew said:

I agree, the die press tool had a defect which would account for the ridge, no othe reason for it to be there, more than likely they had 2 machines...

“Shall we fix it Leo?”
“Nah who is ever going to notice that!”
60 years later….. 😂

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, Hellzero said:

It was a drill (what I called cutting) press that was used to make this plates back then at the Kluson factory.

 

It wouldn't be a drill press, they are used to make holes. More likely a die cutting press.

The simplest explanation is that one of the dies got chipped.

[Alanko]

21 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

It wouldn't be a drill press, they are used to make holes. More likely a die cutting press.

The simplest explanation is that one of the dies got chipped.

If it was chipped, extra material would be left behind on each plate? We aren't seeing too much metal cut away at that corner presumably.

[mikebass456]

Took me a little while to realise what this was about (it's early! 😆).

Been and had a look at mine just now - looks like mine are all nibbled....

[snorkie635]

54 minutes ago, mikebass456 said:

Took me a little while to realise what this was about (it's early! 😆).

Been and had a look at mine just now - looks like mine are all nibbled....

They all look genuine to me and match perfectly, but the headstock might be a Rickenbacker re-mould of the Gibson copy of an original Guild, Gretsch rip-off? To be sure, I'd sell it, or swap for a microphone. 👍

[Burns-bass]

8 hours ago, Mrbigstuff said:

“Shall we fix it Leo?”
“Nah who is ever going to notice that!”
60 years later….. 😂

Given the guy was a born distuptor I think he’d find the veneration of his 70 year old designs and manufacturing methods laughable.

 

He’d also probably take offence at everyone saying he was a cheapskate. 

 

 

[rwillett]

8 hours ago, Alanko said:

If it was chipped, extra material would be left behind on each plate? We aren't seeing too much metal cut away at that corner presumably.

Been thinking about this again (another sleepness night).

 

The die used in the machine to stamp this out can't have been broken otherwise more material, not less, would be left. If it was broken and then repaired (die heads aren't cheap to make so repairing it makes sense, toolmakers are skilled craftsmen) then there would be more material in the tuner head. I'm going with a different die was made and perhaps they were looking to align this with something else.

 

I will now do my best not to think about this as I walk the dog.

 

Rob

[mikebass456]

42 minutes ago, rwillett said:

 

 

I will now do my best not to think about this as I walk the dog.

Have been to walk the dog here. Decided that as it wasn't on my "to think about" list until earlier this morning, then it's not worth further effort. Need to save my thinking capacity for later, when I have to choose between cake or toasted teacake with my coffee.....

[snorkie635]

11 minutes ago, mikebass456 said:

Have been to walk the dog here. Decided that as it wasn't on my "to think about" list until earlier this morning, then it's not worth further effort. Need to save my thinking capacity for later, when I have to choose between cake or toasted teacake with my coffee.....

Ahhhh, but WHICH TYPE of coffee? (Therapy time again!) 🤪

[Belka]

2 hours ago, mikebass456 said:

Took me a little while to realise what this was about (it's early! 😆).

Been and had a look at mine just now - looks like mine are all nibbled....

Those look like re-issues to me - the '50s'60s ones had a much shorter/wider thread pattern on the barrels - yours have the longer thinner thread typical of re-issues. 

[Sparky Mark]

7 minutes ago, Belka said:

Those look like re-issues to me - the '50s'60s ones had a much shorter/wider thread pattern on the barrels - yours have the longer thinner thread typical of re-issues. 

Indeed. Those seem to be the reissue relic set now used on Roadworn and CS relic instruments.

Edited 3 hours ago by Sparky Mark

[mikebass456]

1 hour ago, rwillett said:

Been thinking about this again (another sleepness night).

 

The die used in the machine to stamp this out can't have been broken otherwise more material, not less, would be left. If it was broken and then repaired (die heads aren't cheap to make so repairing it makes sense, toolmakers are skilled craftsmen) then there would be more material in the tuner head. I'm going with a different die was made and perhaps they were looking to align this with something else.

 

I will now do my best not to think about this as I walk the dog.

 

Rob

 

37 minutes ago, snorkie635 said:

Ahhhh, but WHICH TYPE of coffee? (Therapy time again!) 🤪

 

[Stub Mandrel]

2 hours ago, rwillett said:

The die used in the machine to stamp this out can't have been broken otherwise more material, not less, would be left.

 

A die punch uses two matched dies, the upper one is the shape of the object wanted, and is forced through a matching hole. There is a small clearance around the die.

If it was the upper die that is forced through a hole in the lower die that was chipped, the extra clearance would mean that it would punch out a slightly smaller shape.