Does your band use a sub-woofer as part of your PA?

[EBS_freak]

Indeed - the people who tend to poo poo subs fall into three categories.

1. People who have never tried them

2. People who have bought sub/s that are too small compared to the rest of their setup (they expect miracles from a budget 10" sub)

3. People who have bought ridiculously big subs without taking into account the effort and transport required to shift them

 

For me, it's a bit like monitors. People always skimp on monitors... and then wonder why you can't put bass through them. Get your setup right... let your PA do what it's meant to do... and buy the right gear for the job. A PA can outgun a bass rig, keyboard amp... everything... and it will sound much better out front.

Edited October 15, 2019 by EBS_freak

[timhiggins]

Subs are essential for a realistic balanced sound i.m.o.

we have 2 of the Alto 1250 watt ones ,

they are bloody heavy and bloody well worth it.

[4000]

4 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Indeed - the people who tend to poo poo subs fall into three categories.

1. People who have never tried them

2. People who have bought sub/s that are two small compared to the rest of their setup (they expect miracles from a budget 10" sub)

3. People who have bought ridiculously big subs without taking into account the effort and transport required to shift them

 

For me, it's a bit like monitors. People always skimp on monitors... and then wonder why you can't put bass through them. Get your setup right... let your PA do what it's meant to do... and buy the right gear for the job. A PA can outgun a bass rig, keyboard amp... everything... and it will sound much better out front.

To be fair, there are also those - not unlike my band - that have a limited budget, no soundman and fairly limited technical knowledge with regards to PAs. Not a recipe for success. 

[Al Krow]

22 minutes ago, timhiggins said:

Subs are essential for a realistic balanced sound i.m.o.

we have 2 of the Alto 1250 watt ones ,

they are bloody heavy and bloody well worth it.

Sounds like you've had a pretty good experience (apart from the weight!) with your Altos!

4 minutes ago, 4000 said:

To be fair, there are also those - not unlike my band - that have a limited budget, no soundman and fairly limited technical knowledge with regards to PAs. Not a recipe for success. 

A sound guy would be nice, but we've managed perfectly well without and I'm sure loads of other bands do too.

As for technical knowledge - if you can learn a full set of songs you've got the ability, between you, to connect up a sub to a PA. Well that's my view of the world anyway! 😁

In terms of limited budget, the Alto 312S appears to offer remarkable value for money, but totally appreciate that if things are tight that is gonna be a constraint.

[4000]

10 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Sounds like you've had a pretty good experience (apart from the weight!) with your Altos!

A sound guy would be nice, but we've managed perfectly well without and I'm sure loads of other bands do too.

As for technical knowledge - if you can learn a full set of songs you've got the ability, between you, to connect up a sub to a PA. Well that's my view of the world anyway! 😁

In terms of limited budget, the Alto 312S appears to offer remarkable value for money, but totally appreciate that if things are tight that is gonna be a constraint.

Oh we get by pretty well, never have any complaints, but it could always be better. As mentioned before, I don’t think our sub matches our tops very well. There’s an area of lower mids that seems to fall between the two, which sadly is where I sit.😉 I actually find it far easier backlining (although most of the time I don’t) as it’s a pain in the proverbials trying to eq back in everything the pa loses.

Because we’re an acoustic band with cajon, we don’t have quite the same requirement for big lows that most bands would. 

[timhiggins]

17 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Sounds like you've had a pretty good experience (apart from the weight!) with your Altos!

Definitely been well worth it for us and you can always hire one to try before buying 👍

 

[colleya]

32 minutes ago, timhiggins said:

Definitely been well worth it for us and you can always hire one to try before buying 👍

We use a single first generation Alto 15" sub with two 12" Alto tops. It's just vocals and a bit of kick drum though the PA and the sub helps give the sound more depth, especially in larger venues.

I don't find the sub too heavy, but the new gen 3 ones are lighter and look lots better. We don't need to upgrade, but that's not how these things work right?

 

[Al Krow]

So based on the input and recommendations from this thread, it does seem there is prevalent use and significant benefit to be had to adding a sub to our 10" tops in terms of additional low end and allowing the tops to focus on mids / highs without having a big chunk of their work diverted to the energy draining low end. I have narrowed my choices down to two of the lighter 12" speakers:

RCF 702 AS II - 39lbs, built in mixer & crossover, f resp 40hz to 120hz - £696 new

Alto TS312S - 55lbs and almost 1/4 bigger in size than the RCF, crossover, f resp 44hz to 95hz - £344 

The RCF is almost double the price of the Alto, but the weight & size differential I suspect is going to make quite a lot of difference in terms of portability of the RCF to me which means it will get used more regularly and, based on the awesome reputation of the RCF alone (as I've not heard either in practice), I would expect there to be a bit of step up in speaker and component quality in the RCF vs the Alto with a corresponding greater clarity / lack of low end  'muffle' for the RCF.

If I could get a vgc RCF 702 AS II used for around the £500 mark that would be a clincher. Any recommendations for good used sites for PA gear where I might be able to pick one of these up?

[jimmyb625]

I have an Alto TS212s, bought just before the 3 series came out at a price that made it too good to miss. It's good for our requirements and I'm sure the 3 series is even better, especially when paired up with some Alto tops.

However, as you already have the RCF 310 tops, I'd really try to get the RCF sub. I used the 702 and 710 combination for a gig and they were very good.

[EBS_freak]

16 hours ago, 4000 said:

To be fair, there are also those - not unlike my band - that have a limited budget, no soundman and fairly limited technical knowledge with regards to PAs. Not a recipe for success. 

I think it always takes one person in the band to be the research monkey I guess. I think I have always been that guy... whether it's mixing, IEMs, PA, video, lighting, photography etc. I guess I'm the studious type that spends hours and hours and hours researching... because nobody else in the band is going to... 😛

[Tubster]

Also a user of a single ALTO TS212S along with 2xQSC K8. Excellent system for 3 piece doing smaller/medium places. The sub handles some bass and bass drum and is not stretched. However, have borrowed the light RCF (702?) and the difference was very noticeable. If you can swing for the RCF - go for it but the ALTO would not be too shabby.

[Al Krow]

7 hours ago, Tubster said:

Also a user of a single ALTO TS212S along with 2xQSC K8. Excellent system for 3 piece doing smaller/medium places. The sub handles some bass and bass drum and is not stretched. However, have borrowed the light RCF (702?) and the difference was very noticeable. If you can swing for the RCF - go for it but the ALTO would not be too shabby.

That's exactly the comparison I'm needing, thanks! 

Grateful if you could elaborate on what the difference was that you heard? 

[Al Krow]

Not been able to find any RCF 702 AS II for sale used anywhere.

Best price online seems to be £696 (Andertons). Ebay have got a 10% off (up to £75) voucher deal going on right now and one store had it listed for £699 so with the 10% off deal that comes to £629. Not sure I'm going to get a 702  for too much better than this, in terms of pricing, anytime soon and pulled the trigger...

Edited October 18, 2019 by Al Krow

[EBS_freak]

Just now, Al Krow said:

Not been able to find any RCF 702 AS II for sale used anywhere.

Best price online seems to be £696 (Andertons). Ebay have got a 10% off (up to £75) voucher deal going on right now and one store had it listed for £699 so with the 10% off deal that comes to £629. Not sure I'm going to get for too much better than this anytime soon and pulled the trigger...

Nooooooooo!

 

Just joking.

[Al Krow]

19 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Nooooooooo!

 

Just joking.

Haha. Just need to see if I can get away with not taking my amp and cab to gigs, whilst having just a single Alto TS 208 as a monitor. (I'm hoping we won't need to make the monitor vocal only but can bleed in some bass and kick drum).

I'm guessing no possibility of having the sub as back line in terms of feedback.

But would this all mean I've gone FRFR in which case your comment stands: Nooooooooo!

😁

PS and I forgot to mention, both drummers have given the idea a big thumbs up - they're clearly keener on getting a sub to mic the kick drum than they had let on!

Edited October 18, 2019 by Al Krow

[EBS_freak]

The sub will be too low for your backline. Theres not much in terms of note definition coming out of your sub.

[Al Krow]

5 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

The sub will be too low for your backline. Theres not much in terms of note definition coming out of your sub.

Yup it was more to get a feel for the bass to augment whatever relatively small amount of bass coming through the monitor, which would likely be minimal with ear plugs in.

[EBS_freak]

4 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Yup it was more to get a feel for the bass to augment whatever relatively small amount of bass coming through the monitor, which would likely be minimal with ear plugs in.

That sub is not going to make you feel any bass. You may want to look at a backbeat or a woojer if that is what you are looking for.

[Al Krow]

45 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

That sub is not going to make you feel any bass. 

Talk me through that? Thought the whole point of a sub was to get some oomph into the chest thumping 50Hz to 65Hz bass thud range for the audience.

[peted]

We use two passive EV 12" tops fed from a stereo class-D power amp, and a single active EV 18" sub that just runs from the extra left channel output from the desk.  The sub has a low pass filter and the amp for the tops has a high pass filter that we use to give them a bit of separation.

[EBS_freak]

11 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Talk me through that? Thought the whole point of a sub was to get some oomph into the chest thumping 50Hz to 65Hz bass thud range for the audience.

You'll hear the bass - but to actually feel a thump in your chest you need to shift a lot of air. You'll hear it... but if you are thinking of reproducing the sort of sub lows when you go to an arena gig... you need a lot of subs. Dont worry, your subs will give a lot more body and lows to the band sound... you've done a good thing!

[Tubster]

On 17/10/2019 at 18:28, Al Krow said:

That's exactly the comparison I'm needing, thanks! 

Grateful if you could elaborate on what the difference was that you heard? 

We did not push either the RCF nor the ALTO both running on half power. The RCF felt like it had a lot more to give . Both rounded out the sound o f the whole PA and elevated it to another level. The RCF had more ‘sonic authority’. Sounded bigger with plenty in reserve.

Neither will give you a chest thumping experience but  there will be smiles all around, mostly from the drummer. Our guitarist was reluctant to go down the sub road but after we used it, we never did another gig without it and he was completely satisfied with the PA.

Your band mates and your little RCFs will be very grateful!

[Al Krow]

Thanks for that.

@Tubster, I guess I was expecting you to say that the RCF had greater clarity and punch and was less muddy than the Alto, based on the quality of the speakers etc used in the RCF - just based on similar improvements in the sound my cabs have delivered as I've worked up through the gears over the past 5 years to higher end cabs.

I suspect that more 'sonic authority' broadly = greater clarity and punch, although it doesn't sound like the Alto was 'muddy' at all from what you were saying? For the money, the Alto clearly is a LOT of kit.

But I know at 39lbs (RCF) vs 55lbs (Alto) my back is going to love me forever and that between the lighter weight and the additional sonic authority, the RCF (with the benefit of the 10% eBay discount!) should be well worth the extra coin. My thanks to @jrixn1 for bringing the particular 702 AS II model to my attention! 

A health warning to fellow BC'ers: starting gear threads can damage your wealth 😁. It invariably seems to do so for me! And I note from the poll that there are 6 other bands, besides our own, thinking about subs too...

Edited October 19, 2019 by Al Krow

[paul_c2]

3 hours ago, Tubster said:

We did not push either the RCF nor the ALTO both running on half power. The RCF felt like it had a lot more to give . Both rounded out the sound o f the whole PA and elevated it to another level. The RCF had more ‘sonic authority’. Sounded bigger with plenty in reserve.

Neither will give you a chest thumping experience but  there will be smiles all around, mostly from the drummer. Our guitarist was reluctant to go down the sub road but after we used it, we never did another gig without it and he was completely satisfied with the PA.

Your band mates and your little RCFs will be very grateful!

Interesting comments, and thank-you for going into some amount of detail. I know you said earlier "smaller/medium places", approx what size (in seating capacity or fire limit) are these? And what genre of music?

Edited October 19, 2019 by paul_c2

[Gottastopbuyinggear]

I'm really interested to see how this pans out for you @Al Krow, and also to hear @Tubster's answer to the question above.

I "do the sound" for our band (typical pub/small venue band playing mainly 60's and 70's stuff, up to a couple of times a month) - by that I mean I stand in front of the band for one quick song after we've set up and try and get a reasonable mix of vocals, BVs and keys through our pair of Yamaha DBR12's, while gesticulating at our guitarist to turn either himself or me either up or down depending on the venue and what gear he or I are using, all while trying to balance all that with a non-mic'd kit.

I used to think of us as pretty loud, but lately I'm wondering if that's really true.  I certainly feel that our mains aren't pushed in any way - they're on 0db and the main output on the mixer is usually set at about -8dB so, in my lack of a thorough understanding of the topic, that feels like we're not pushing the PA at all.

Our drummer thinks we'd benefit from some kick through the PA, and I'd be quite keen to go through the PA myself and slim down the kit I'm taking (more often than not my two DIY (Baschat Mk 1) 12" cabs driven by an Ampeg PF500).  However even though I don't need a lot of low end I still have my concerns whether a single 12" sub will be enough to handle the lower part of the bass duties.  I've tried running through a single 12 myself and felt it was struggling (I know that's probably an invalid comparison),  though a single 15 (Ampeg PF115HE) was okay.

Any investment in a sub will be something that I'd drive, so I'll need to be pretty convinced it'll suffice before pushing the idea.  The RCF 702 at roughly £700 would be quite a big investment for the band as the rest of the kit, even though most of it was bought new, only amounts to about £1,400.  And I'll need to invest in a monitor as well.

Hence I'm really keen to hear some examples of people using this type of kit in similar sorts of bands and in similar types of venues.