Do i need to learn all the scales?

[wishface]

Assuming my goal is to be a rounded musician with a good knowledge of music?

I'm familiar with the basic scales/modes. But there are so many scales. 

Do the pros learn them all? if so what's the best way? Or is it just putting in the hard yards?

[paul_c2]

No.

What's more important is that you can fluidly combine "playing scales", being in a (hand) position and knowing when to shift (or not), notes on the fretboard, intervals, notes on the page (reading). Once you understand the interrelationships between those, then it all comes together.

[paul_c2]

....

Edited August 9, 2019 by paul_c2

[paul_c2]

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Edited August 9, 2019 by paul_c2

[wishface]

11 minutes ago, paul_c2 said:

No.

What's more important is that you can fluidly combine "playing scales", being in a (hand) position and knowing when to shift (or not), notes on the fretboard, intervals, notes on the page (reading). Once you understand the interrelationships between those, then it all comes together.

Shifting is certainly something I need to work on.

[greghagger]

I suggest looking at the following scales:

Major/Minor, Pentatonic and Blues  

These are a good starting point.

Arpeggios are more handy for outlining chords, so you could look at some major and minor 7th arpeggios. Then you have a good framework for constructing bass lines or starting to solo. 

 

[wishface]

Thanks, I'm familiar with the basic scales. It's just all the other stuff, from melodic and harmonic minors to all the weird exotic scales and jazz stuff. Do I need to learn all of that?

 

[gary mac]

5 minutes ago, wishface said:

Thanks, I'm familiar with the basic scales. It's just all the other stuff, from melodic and harmonic minors to all the weird exotic scales and jazz stuff. Do I need to learn all of that?

 

I tend to think of it as "Do I want to learn all of that" , rather than need.

If you want to, then ultimately, it will almost certainly make you a better player than before.

[DoubleOhStephan]

You don't need to do anything, but knowledge is power.

May I ask what it is you're trying to achieve, or perhaps more importantly, what's putting you off from doing it? 

[Reggaebass]

I second what @greghagger says about major/minor pentatonics , you will find these so useful, I can highly recommend this book 🙂

[chris_b]

11 hours ago, wishface said:

Assuming my goal is to be a rounded musician with a good knowledge of music?

I'm familiar with the basic scales/modes. But there are so many scales. 

Do the pros learn them all? if so what's the best way? Or is it just putting in the hard yards?

What is your definition of a pro bass player? If it is the guy out of U2, Sterephonics or Thin Lizzy, then just know enough to play the songs. That's fine, but if you want to be the musician you claim, learn to become fluent in bass.

The beauty of scales is that they are a shape. Learn that shape in every position and you've become competent. Learn all the scales in all the different shapes and how to put them together in interesting ways you'll be on the way to becoming the player you are talking about. You'll still only get to play the songs, but you'll sound better because you'll be a more confident, flexible and accomplished player.

James Jamerson will be talked about while there are still bass players taking breath, because his simple lines were intelligently put together, because he knew his theory inside out.

[wishface]

33 minutes ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

You don't need to do anything, but knowledge is power.

May I ask what it is you're trying to achieve, or perhaps more importantly, what's putting you off from doing it? 

I want to know as much as i can about what to play, I already have some knowledge, self taught. Nothing is putting me off, I just want to maximise my effort

[wishface]

11 minutes ago, chris_b said:

What is your definition of a pro bass player? If it is the guy out of U2, Sterephonics or Thin Lizzy, then just know enough to play the songs. That's fine, but if you want to be the musician you claim, learn to become fluent in bass.

The beauty of scales is that they are a shape. Learn that shape in every position and you've become competent. Learn all the scales in all the different shapes and how to put them together in interesting ways you'll be on the way to becoming the player you are talking about. You'll still only get to play the songs, but you'll sound better because you'll be a more confident, flexible and accomplished player.

James Jamerson will be talked about while there are still bass players taking breath, because his simple lines were intelligently put together, because he knew his theory inside out.

Any pro player. Obviously some are more technicaly and musically knowledgable than others. I'm not making a judgement. But I think it likely that James Jamerson knew theory better than, for example, Adam Clayton. Regardless of who's music one prefers.

My point is to learn music. 

 

I'm not looking to argue who's better/pro or not

Edited August 9, 2019 by wishface

[DoubleOhStephan]

11 minutes ago, wishface said:

I want to know as much as i can about what to play, I already have some knowledge, self taught. Nothing is putting me off, I just want to maximise my effort

In that case, I think you've answered your own question so defo go for it. 

Is there a best way? Well, everyone learns differently so it's hard to say definitively. Probably the most efficient way is to get lessons from a pro (either in person or Skype type lessons), they'll be able to assess your current ability and plan out the best route to your goals. 

[jrixn1]

Let's just stick with C major for now:

1. Play a third (C E) then move this patten diatonically up the scale.  I.e. C E D F E G F A etc.
2. Same exercise but for all intervals  E.g for a fourth it would be C F D G E A F B etc.
3. Same exercise but a three-note pattern; e.g. C D E.  This would be C D E D E F E F G F G A etc. Another example is C G E, which would be: C G E D A F E B G F C A etc. There are many combinations so this step should keep you busy for a while.
4. Same exercise but with four-note patterns; e.g. John Coltrane's favourite C D E G:  C D E G D E F A E F G B F G A C etc. There are even more combinations when there are four notes.

Once you've done this, you will really start to know C major.
 

[chris_b]

48 minutes ago, wishface said:

Any pro player. Obviously some are more technicaly and musically knowledgable than others. I'm not making a judgement. But I think it likely that James Jamerson knew theory better than, for example, Adam Clayton. Regardless of who's music one prefers.

My point is to learn music. 

 

I'm not looking to argue who's better/pro or not

I'm not arguing, just pointing out that there are varying degrees of pro musician.

If you have the desire to have a good working knowledge of theory and technique then there are no short cuts. Put in the hours and you will be a much better musician by the end. . . . except there probably isn't an end. To be a good player is a life long path and you can always keep improving.

Also find a good tutor and take some lessons. There's nothing more focussing than having to sit in front of someone and prove you can play what they set you in the previous lesson.

[paul_c2]

Yeah, "you don't know what you don't know" - if you get lessons, then they will be able to identify any gaps in your knowledge and fix that, which will benefit you long term. If you try to self-teach, you'll subconciously pass them by.....

[wishface]

30 minutes ago, paul_c2 said:

Yeah, "you don't know what you don't know" - if you get lessons, then they will be able to identify any gaps in your knowledge and fix that, which will benefit you long term. If you try to self-teach, you'll subconciously pass them by.....

Sure, but can't afford lessons

[DoubleOhStephan]

33 minutes ago, wishface said:

Sure, but can't afford lessons

In that case, YouTube is your friend! 

[wishface]

1 hour ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

In that case, YouTube is your friend! 

Sure, there are lots of good clips, but the point was that having a teacher can spot the problems you yourself arne't conscious of. A youtube clip can't do that

 

[DoubleOhStephan]

1 minute ago, wishface said:

Sure, there are lots of good clips, but the point was that having a teacher can spot the problems you yourself arne't conscious of. A youtube clip can't do that

 

Yep, understood, but you said you can't afford lessons? 

[wishface]

5 minutes ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

Yep, understood, but you said you can't afford lessons? 

correct. 

I'm (if I may be the one to say it) reasonably familiar with the basics. I know the major scales and the notes on the neck and chords. It's just all the offbeat scales. For example, i've just learned the melodic minor is different descending. I do not know why. That information is the sort of thing Id like to know, along with what you'd use it for. 

 

[paul_c2]

...But the problem is, you might never "finish" learning the scales if the approach is to arbritarily learn all of them. There's scales I don't know, and there's scales I've learned but forgotten because they simply aren't used commonly enough to justify it. 

Instead, there should be a more rounded approach to knowing the relationships between scales and chords, ie when a certain scale might be used over a chord progression; or why it might change, etc etc. And also there is a conection between the actual fingerings used, the 'best' position to play something in, the intervals, the notes of a chord, what chord it is and why, and how the bassline fits in with the other instruments playing, eg is it doing its job as a strong bassline or is it "away with the fairies" in a particular place. There can be a lot going on, and if you stopped to analyse it you'd be focusing on note choice, harmony, etc but in the distance it could also be interpreted as a "scale" holding it together in the background, but its more of an indirect coincidence.

To start with, its certainly worth knowing what's "diatonic" and if/when it departs from this (which is ridiculously easy to spot if its written music - because there will be an accidental!), what the most common variations are and what function it has.

[DoubleOhStephan]

Well, that's a really tricky question because, ultimately, it's all about what you're hoping to get out of it. 

So, the more musical theory you know, (potentially) the better your composition will be, along with free style playing, transcribing existing music etc. But, there's no magic bullet, one size fits all solution, it's a personal journey. I think the more you understand the music you want to play, the more you'll recognise the theory which suits your needs. 

Sorry I can't be more help, but all I can suggest is, try out a new scale then play around with it. Stick on a drum beat and play around with the notes, just grooving over the drums. If it doesn't work for your jam, bin it and try something else. If it does, focus on different roots or mixing with different scales. 

The thing is, no matter what you learn, any proactive playing is a forward step and will improve you as a bassist.

[wishface]

1 hour ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

Well, that's a really tricky question because, ultimately, it's all about what you're hoping to get out of it. 

So, the more musical theory you know, (potentially) the better your composition will be, along with free style playing, transcribing existing music etc. But, there's no magic bullet, one size fits all solution, it's a personal journey. I think the more you understand the music you want to play, the more you'll recognise the theory which suits your needs. 

Sorry I can't be more help, but all I can suggest is, try out a new scale then play around with it. Stick on a drum beat and play around with the notes, just grooving over the drums. If it doesn't work for your jam, bin it and try something else. If it does, focus on different roots or mixing with different scales. 

The thing is, no matter what you learn, any proactive playing is a forward step and will improve you as a bassist.

Not at all, I appreciate everybody's input, thank you.

I think what I'm asking is whether there are underlying principles governing the use of scales that can be applied to their learning, rather than learn them one by one like a shopping list. I don't mind doing that at all, it's what I do now. I devise exercises out of patterns because I enjoy that. However I do not want to be stuck in merely playing those patterns ithout understanding more. THat's a common pitfall.

Here's a couple of clips. What I would like is not just to have the technical facility these guys have but to be able to play what they are playing. Anyone could just do a solo by running up and down scales, but these are examples of not jsut technical facility but understanding what and making choices. Also, I've never been a blues player and so their choices are informed clearly by styles that incprorate those kinds of melody (blues/jazz/funk). Note that I'm not specifically looking to learn blues and jazz, but I am looking to understand the sorts of things these guys are playing and why they sound like they do. It's bound to be more than a few blue notes here and there.

 

The bass solo in this and the chords leading right into it:

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by wishface