Playing by ear Vs. reading music

[AM1]

Hi

Interested to hear any opinions on preferred method of learning existing basslines.

For those who play by ear, do you always know what notes you are playing on the bass by the letter or do you just work on imitation? Do you know what the notes are on each fret on all strings, or again, just work by ear?

On the tabs that I've seen (which is not that many) it just shows the fret numbers and strings but doesn't show the actual note, so you still have to work out what notes you're actually playing, i.e. fret 5 on E string is A.

Essentially, I guess my real question is do you prefer scientific approach versus natural musician?

I am not drawing any preference of one over the other and my question is purely asked from idle curiousity.

Regards
AM

[Sean]

I don't see this as an either/or choice at all. Generally those people with good reading skills have a good ear that has been developed and if they are working out a bass line from a recording use their ear. The ability to read and know what notes you are playing is vital if you are communicating with other musicians in a creative environment, as is the ability to do things by ear.

Learning what notes are where on the fretboard is very important and there are some very good exercises based around octave shapes and the cycle of fourths/fifths that help you learn these.

There are people who don't read, don't use tabs and rely on their ear and [i]some[/i] of these seem very anti reading and reverse snobbish about it but I never ever met anyone who said that they regretted learning to read music but I meet people all the time who wish they had learned.

If you can read and you have a good ear then you'll always have gigs

[Bilbo]

I'm with Sean. A good reader is one who can make the notes sing and you can't do that unless you have a good ear and a real sense of the music being performed.

Session musicians got a bad rap in the 70s because there were loads of recordings made by musicians who didn't understand the music they were performing. They read the dots but didn't [i]play[/i] the music. Classical musicians who can breath life into a classical piece but can't play a jazz piece just don't understand jazz. Its not their reading or their ears that are at fault. Its their understanding of the idiom.

Learn to read and develop your ears. You need them both.

[chris_b]

I'm with Bilbo on this.
I used to play with Stefan Grappeli's drummer, who was a very good jazz player, but Grappeli's band loathed the gigs when Yehudi Menuhin used to join them because the guy, brilliant as he was at classical, couldn't play anything that wasn't written down for him and wasn't in exact tempo. Apparently, he didn't ever listen to the band!
In my experience too many players who read think that as a result they are playing the music. They're not. They are only playing the dots, which is a different thing. You really do need both skills.

[lowdown]

Both...
The options for work will be greater.
Also when reading you really do need to listen to the other players.
It helps so you are all phrasing together.


Garry

[BOD2]

To answer the original post....

I started playing guitar well over 20 years ago. There was no tab and no guitar music written down other than paino music with "equivalent chords" written down and pulled from a chord dictionary (and usually the wrong chord inversions).

I learned to play by ear entirely.

I started playing bass seriously about 7/8 years ago and just carried that learning technique over. I work out an existing bassline purely by ear, picking out notes by listening and using the exprience I've gained over the years to figure out where things should be played on the neck to sound best.

I don't generally think of the note names. I know where the notes are on the fretboard but just don't think of them generally, other than being aware of playing notes around, say "A" or "D" in a particular song (I know that I'll be playing notes from a scale but again I'm playing by "feel" rather than note names).

For the music I've played (mostly rock/pop covers) I've found that method works for me with no limitations, as I doubt I would be able to find the basslines in any reliable written format anyway. I'm aware of music notation, and can almost understand most of it but I would not be able to sight read at all.

I'm not advocating this approach at all - just answering the question.

[bigjohn]

Yeah, can play by ear. I can hear a note and say, that sounds like a d or an f#. I'm usually right. I can usually play some sort of accompaniment to songs the first time I hear them because of this. I don't think I'd have learned to be like that if I read music, which I don't at all in any way. I looked a tab book the other day and got quite confused as to why it would be helpful. I do know where the notes are on my bass, but, tend to play by pattern once I've found which key(s) I want to be in. I wouldn't advise learning like this. It took me a long time.

[mewsie]

a vote here for the mixture of both.

i do most of my learning by ear, and once i'm playing it, i'll not necessarily be consciously aware of every note is as i go along, but if someone were to ask me 'what note is that' i can tell them (sometimes it takes a second or two - but i still have half a pack of beginners cards left over that i can choose to play at moments such as that )

as tab tells you pretty much nothing about the rhythm and feel of a piece, (and ime is often written by people who mostly use tab and therefore is way out) its helpful to be able to do it by ear.

proper notation is way more cool. i can read it, but far too slowly for my liking, so its off to music college for me in february!

[Urban Bassman]

[quote name='AM1' post='350364' date='Dec 10 2008, 03:04 AM']Hi

Interested to hear any opinions on preferred method of learning existing basslines.

For those who play by ear, do you always know what notes you are playing on the bass by the letter or do you just work on imitation? Do you know what the notes are on each fret on all strings, or again, just work by ear
On the tabs that I've seen (which is not that many) it just shows the fret numbers and strings but doesn't show the actual note, so you still have to work out what notes you're actually playing, i.e. fret 5 on E string is A.

Essentially, I guess my real question is do you prefer scientific approach versus natural musician?

I am not drawing any preference of one over the other and my question is purely asked from idle curiousity.

Regards
AM[/quote]



From my experience, I would say that you need to know what's what on your fret board, there are many books that show you all you need to know. Bass Guitar for Dummies is very good and easy to access the info you need.

A word about tabs....they are nearly always wrong! Even ones published in books...they should only be used as a rough guide at best.

So unless you know a bit about where the notes are on your fret board, you may struggle to learn a song. I can't read music very well at all, so I rely on my knowledge of the fret board, my ears and a few scales to work out what's going on. You will also need these skills if you start jamming with other musicians and writing your own material. I also found that learning another instrument helps, in my case the guitar (of the 6 string variety).

I started playing in the time before the internet and bass teachers where few and far between. Very few music books had the bass transcribed, it was mostly guitar and piano, so you only had the root note to work from. Personally I would recommend that you use all the tools and material available, including the reading of music notation. This will help you become a more versatile and competent player, which is what we all want to be...right? I know I've got much more to learn but that's what is so great about music, there is always something new to learn

[cytania]

As you learn bass you should get to learn where notes are on the strings to an instinctive level. Eventually you'll find your fingers itching to go to the right note (impressive/scarey).

Tab gives you the notes to play and when it's good and accurate that's all you need. However substituting other choices is never far away from a bassists mind. Does an open note sound wrong? Would the E string give it more deep grunt? Do the alternate's play easier/feel more natural/give the right vibe?

If you are beginner put reading sheet off unless you can already read or will be getting scored music to play. Many trained musicians will emphasise reading from the start but unless the session room or orchestra pit beckons don't worry too far in advance. Having said this find out about notation so you can at least puzzle the notes and tempos out slow and surely.

[Huggy and the Bears]

[quote name='cytania' post='350641' date='Dec 10 2008, 01:12 PM']As you learn bass you should get to learn where notes are on the strings to an instinctive level. Eventually you'll find your fingers itching to go to the right note (impressive/scarey).

Tab gives you the notes to play and when it's good and accurate that's all you need. However substituting other choices is never far away from a bassists mind. Does an open note sound wrong? Would the E string give it more deep grunt? Do the alternate's play easier/feel more natural/give the right vibe?

If you are beginner put reading sheet off unless you can already read or will be getting scored music to play. Many trained musicians will emphasise reading from the start but unless the session room or orchestra pit beckons don't worry too far in advance. Having said this find out about notation so you can at least puzzle the notes and tempos out slow and surely.[/quote]

I wish I could read music! I'm dyslexic and whilst I am an academic, reading and doing at the same time doesn't work for me so I have always played by ear. I know what my strings are called and I know 5th frett equals next string. I have a naturally good ear and so when I hear something I know which frett/string it is but have know idea what it is called. I also know relationships between notes from experience.

If I'm told a key of a song I generally work it out from the position of a note that i do know the name of, usually from the 5th fret. This works for me and I get by but I do wish I could read. Interestingly I find that it is easy to do this and it is great for improvising a new song or gigging with another band.

My band sometimes I think i'm joking about understanding the names of the notes but last night as I argued that the guitarist was playing a wrong note, I tried to sound intelligent and told him to play a C flat to which I was informed that there isnt one! They laughed their heads off and told me I must mean a B.

That sums things up I guess for me, I know what to play but don't know what its called, and the boys know what they are called but don't hear its wrong.

Horses for course me thinks!
Si.

[mcgraham]

There's a video clinic with Marcus Miller on bassplayer.tv (I'll find it for you guys this evening) where he spends a bit of time discussing the benefits of being able to 'read'. He tells a great story about George Benson (IIRC) which you really have to hear to appreciate. Essentially he says that reading is a great tool to have, and that it's worth spending just a few weeks getting to grips with music notation and practicing it to get it to a useable level (he's not saying fluent sight reading in weeks, just to a useable level). It's a fairly small sacrifice to make when you consider how huge the benefits are.

Slightly OT, but I was playing with a jazz group at a wedding recently (essentially depping for them). The group could read very well over quite complex pieces, but their (collective and individual) ear was shocking. They were next to useless when it came to improvising and moving together as a musical unit; they really could not 'hear' past the end of their own instrument. The drummer was the only person that made it worth playing with that group; we really gelled as a section.

In short, even with immense reading skills these musicians were lack lustre due to their poor ear. Conversely, some of the best musicians are those with a great ear and zero reading skills. HOWEVER! those who have a good marriage of the two are on a [i]totally [/i]different plane of musical ability. Definitely worth working on both IMO.

Mark

[AM1]

[quote name='Huggy and the Bears' post='350655' date='Dec 10 2008, 01:24 PM']I wish I could read music! I'm dyslexic and whilst I am an academic, reading and doing at the same time doesn't work for me so I have always played by ear. I know what my strings are called and I know 5th frett equals next string. I have a naturally good ear and so when I hear something I know which frett/string it is but have know idea what it is called. I also know relationships between notes from experience.

If I'm told a key of a song I generally work it out from the position of a note that i do know the name of, usually from the 5th fret. This works for me and I get by but I do wish I could read. Interestingly I find that it is easy to do this and it is great for improvising a new song or gigging with another band.

My band sometimes I think i'm joking about understanding the names of the notes but last night as I argued that the guitarist was playing a wrong note, I tried to sound intelligent and told him to play a C flat to which I was informed that there isnt one! They laughed their heads off and told me I must mean a B.

That sums things up I guess for me, I know what to play but don't know what its called, and the boys know what they are called but don't hear its wrong.

Horses for course me thinks!
Si.[/quote]

Hiya

Technically the note can be called either B or Cb depending on what key you are playing in. So, for example, if you were playing in Cb major key for example, the note is Cb, whereas if you were playing in C major key for example, the note is called B.

This happens all over different keys, i.e. the same note can have different names, for example, G# in some keys is called G# but in other keys it is called Ab. In some keys, there are even double flats and double sharps, so G would be called F##.

You recognised and described a semitone step difference. The name of the note is a function of the key you are playing in.

So you can now tell your friends that, depending on the key, technically you are correct :-)

Regards

AM

[AM1]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='350676' date='Dec 10 2008, 01:36 PM']There's a video clinic with Marcus Miller on bassplayer.tv (I'll find it for you guys this evening) where he spends a bit of time discussing the benefits of being able to 'read'. He tells a great story about George Benson (IIRC) which you really have to hear to appreciate. Essentially he says that reading is a great tool to have, and that it's worth spending just a few weeks getting to grips with music notation and practicing it to get it to a useable level (he's not saying fluent sight reading in weeks, just to a useable level). It's a fairly small sacrifice to make when you consider how huge the benefits are.

Slightly OT, but I was playing with a jazz group at a wedding recently (essentially depping for them). The group could read very well over quite complex pieces, but their (collective and individual) ear was shocking. They were next to useless when it came to improvising and moving together as a musical unit; they really could not 'hear' past the end of their own instrument. The drummer was the only person that made it worth playing with that group; we really gelled as a section.

In short, even with immense reading skills these musicians were lack lustre due to their poor ear. Conversely, some of the best musicians are those with a great ear and zero reading skills. HOWEVER! those who have a good marriage of the two are on a [i]totally [/i]different plane of musical ability. Definitely worth working on both IMO.

Mark[/quote]

Hi

Really interested to see the video clinic.

It is true in my experience that sticking too rigidly to written music can inhibit improvisation/listening ability.

I know some musicians whom can play extremely technical annotations but cannot learn by ear/improvise and I know some musicians who can't read a note and don't know what notes they are playing but they can learn anything by ear and improvise.

A combination of both as you state, is a different plane.

Regards

AM

[mcgraham]

AM, absolutely. I totally agree.

The video is on bassplayer.tv...
Go to: BP Events
--> BP Clinics '06
--> Marcus Miller
--> Marcus Miller #4 about 1:15min in.

He is such a funny guy

Best quote: "you hear these guys say 'i'm not a reader' as if they're [i]proud[/i] of that... I say 'how old are you man'... '35' they say, I go '35?! you telling me that in 35 years you ain't found time to learn how to read?...'"

Quality stuff

Mark

[YouMa]

I found bass clef quite easy once you know where your fingers go on the neck of the bass in relation to the dots,its not that much different from tab,learn scales/modes they are very important weapons in your playing cache,especially for coming up with new ideas.

[Bilbo]

Just one more point that I thought of last night. The music notation we are all speaking off has particularly severe limitations when you move into ethnic musics like African, Indian, Latin music etc. For instance, the 'swing' that defines a folkloric samba groove, as defined by the sammmba schools in Rio De Janiero, could not be written down using conventional notation. It can be approximated but, unless you can hear the groove, you won't be able to play it just from the dots.

But the dots undoubtedly remain the most credible means of rendering tunes performable accurately without rehearsal/pre-warning. They facilitate the use of deps without compromising the quality of your fundamental product, they reduce the cost of professional performance by reducing the number of band calls. They facilitate learning on a much deeper level than rote learning/mimicry and allow musicians to communicate much more effectively than other methods (tab is a particularly poor short cut).

Mainly, and this is a VERY important point, the ability to read music DOES NOT and has NEVER impeded anyone's ability to improvise or be creative. If someone can't improvise or create original lines, it is because they have never learned how, NOT because they can read.

[mcgraham]

[quote]Mainly, and this is a VERY important point, the ability to read music DOES NOT and has NEVER impeded anyone's ability to improvise or be creative. If someone can't improvise or create original lines, it is because they have never learned how, NOT because they can read.[/quote]

This is true. I didn't mention this in my first post as I felt it was implicit from the way I worded my post. However, I would supposit that the same 'blinkered' view is present in both 'camps' (for lack of a better word). I get equally infuriated by musicians who insist that they are fine just playing by ear, as I do playing with musicians who can sight read well and then think that automatically makes them a musician. Although I'm probably more frustrated with the former types, and saddened and bored with the latter types.

Mark

[jakenewmanbass]

I haven't got much to add as it's been put very well by others, the one thing that I don't think has been mentioned as a benfit to readers is the enormous amount of music that can be accessed and instantly re-created by good readers that if relying on the aural tradition entirely would never be 'got round to'.
I do however believe the aural tradition has as much integrity as any method of learning and re-creating.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='351518' date='Dec 11 2008, 10:02 AM']Mainly, and this is a VERY important point, the ability to read music DOES NOT and has NEVER impeded anyone's ability to improvise or be creative. If someone can't improvise or create original lines, it is because they have never learned how, NOT because they can read.[/quote]

Not sure if I agree.

I mean, you make sense, and it seems logical.

I just struggle to explain why I rarely seem to like the music created by those who are technicaly/theorectically very strong. OK, maybe all this Jazz nonsense is creative. Creative doesn't mean good though.

Bilbo, would you be playing Jazz if you didn't spend so much time studying theory? Or would you be out there in leather trousers, thrusting your groin at a woman under half your age whilst rockin' out?

The music that inspires me usually consists of 3 notes. Y'know those tunes that make you think "It's so simple! How has no one thought of this before?". People who know more seem to struggle to keep it so simple. They find it boring. Hence Jazz.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='351709' date='Dec 11 2008, 12:52 PM']The music that inspires me usually consists of 3 notes. Y'know those tunes that make you think "It's so simple! How has no one thought of this before?". People who know more seem to struggle to keep it so simple. They find it boring. Hence Jazz.[/quote]

The country scene in Nashville is full of players that are scarily good at reading, can improvise effortlessly over complex changes, yet manage to play half as many notes as even the most minimalist hacks would on their sessions...

Alex

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='351713' date='Dec 11 2008, 01:00 PM']The country scene in Nashville is full of players that are scarily good at reading, can improvise effortlessly over complex changes, yet manage to play half as many notes as even the most minimalist hacks would on their sessions...

Alex[/quote]


That would explain my fondness of country.

[Bilbo]

The only way I can describe it is that learning theory is like learning any language. The more you know, the more you can express yourself and, over time, the more complex the ideas you express become. That doesn't mean you can't see the value, depth and strength of a simple statement such as 'I think, therefore I am' or 'His voice is much deeper than anything he ever has to say'. But it does make it hard for you to enjoy Carry On type innuendo and jokes about changing light bulbs!

I did a wedding on Saturday and we were so in the pocket the drummer, a generally quite reticent man and a jazzer at heart, was laughing, actually laughing because it was grooving so hard. We were all smiling at the end and sharing a sense of a job well done. Fantastic feeling. If, however, I had to do that 4 nights a week, every week, I would get very bored very quickly (like after 3 gigs ). Just as a book of 'inspirational quotes' can cease to be inspirational, the enjoyment one gets from simplicity in music can pale quite quickly if its all there is available. Because people who study music tend (and this is a generalisation) to spend more time with it, they won't get the buzz you do out of a three chord trick because they have probably spent more time with it and know that it is a tiny part of the art form's wider potential. Its not that they don't see its value, its that they also see its limitations.

I guess when all of us get into music we start with pretty basic stuff but we all move on because we look for somthing fresh to reinvigorate ourselves. If you keep looking, you need more and more sophisticated ideas to get you excited. I guess it also depends on what kind of mind you have, what kind of personality. Mine led me to jazz and Walter Piston's 'Harmony', 'Counterpoint' and 'Orchestration'

[alexclaber]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='351714' date='Dec 11 2008, 01:01 PM']That would explain my fondness of country.[/quote]

I never thought I'd live to say this but Patsy Cline rules!

Alex

[Bilbo]

She's crazy!