alexclaber Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='351722' date='Dec 11 2008, 01:14 PM']I guess when all of us get into music we start with pretty basic stuff but we all move on because we look for somthing fresh to reinvigorate ourselves. If you keep looking, you need more and more sophisticated ideas to get you excited.[/quote] One way of finding fresh music to invigorate ourselves is to play more complex jazz as time progresses but another way is to write and play your own ('original') music. The big challenge I find with writing is the search for music that retains an elegant simplicity yet is also original - the more pared down the music is then the harder it is to find something new and exciting. I never seem to achieve that holy grail of supreme simplicity yet original expression of emotion but it's an enjoyable search and I do at least find some slightly more complex ways of expressing myself enroute. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 More sophisticated doesn't necessarily mean more complex but it usually does! I agree that composing is a great way to stay interested but, again, writing a 3 chord blues is not particularly satisfying if you have been playing/writing them for 30 years! I don't disagree with the spirit of what you say but simple is rarely satisfying enough to hold my attention for long (the recent exception being Javier Navarette's music for 'Pan's Labyrinth') Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 (edited) [quote name='bilbo230763' post='351763' date='Dec 11 2008, 01:52 PM']I agree that composing is a great way to stay interested but, again, writing a 3 chord blues is not particularly satisfying if you have been playing/writing them for 30 years![/quote] Horses for courses and all that. I've never managed to write a three chord blues that actually sounds original and exciting - if I were to ever manage it I'll feel like the greatest songwriter in the world! I think of late my writing is becoming more interesting but my basslines are becoming more minimalist. Alex Edited December 11, 2008 by alexclaber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 [quote]I just struggle to explain why I rarely seem to like the music created by those who are technicaly/theorectically very strong. OK, maybe all this Jazz nonsense is creative. Creative doesn't mean good though.[/quote] I think we've covered this ground in numerous other threads. A piece of recorded music or performed music does not automatically tell you what went into creating it, or the [i]complete [/i]skill set of the people who recorded it. Your love of the music you love indicates nothing more than... well, your love of the music that you love. Don't mistake what you like for what is good/right/'the way', just enjoy what you enjoy. That is the approach I try to keep, as well as challenging myself and reinventing what has become stale. I try to infuse what I create with new and more complex ideas for my [i]intellectual [/i]benefit, whilst always making sure it is musical if I'm going to use it; the latter is for the [i]musical [/i]enjoyment of myself and others. The intellectual and theoretical must always go hand in hand with the musical, if it's to be used at all. Of course, what is musical and what is not is subjective, but as long as I'm [i]genuinely [/i]playing what I enjoy, I'm having fun. At the end of the day, that's what it's about for me. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Well as this has recently been an issue for me i thought id put in my 2p lol. I recently joined a band and was all going great until it came to learning the originals. We went to learn them and they refused to give me any basic chord structure or anything of the sort. Telling me that if I stuck at it I should easily pick it up at a later point. After 2 days of struggling on and trying to pick it up I asked for a hand and consequently got dropped from the band. Now to explain the situation. Im a bassist of 2 and a bit years and keyboard player of 17+. I originally and have always learnt by notation/tab. Powertab being that which I lean to for bass. I dont usually think this limits me as if someone can tell me what chords or notes or even frets they play then I can easily work out the best bassline I see fit and also hear in my head. My problem is finding "the starting point". I wouldnt say I have a musical ear at all. Atleast for learning by ear. However for picking up rhythm and adding extra notes I can easily hear where it can go to etc. I don't usually think im limited, I just think I need to find slightly more.... patient guitarist/s. Rik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Don't let them bother you Rik. Their attitude in that situation sounds poor. On the plus side though, at least some of your weaknesses have been highlighted! I know I found the thought of transcription terrifying. I used to think 'how on earth can anyone [i]recognise [/i]pitches?!' It's not like there's the same physical response you get as you do when playing a sport, e.g. football, the ball comes towards your feet, you see it, you kick it, you can sense what's going on with your sense of touch, sight, sound etc. But then the more I listened to stuff the more I realised that there [i]are [/i]physical responses to music. Certain chord progressions and note choices evoke certain feels/feelings/atmosphere/ambience etc. I found that working through the modes and transcribing chord progressions I eventually 'broke down' what notes and what chords were responsible for what basic feels, and worked up from there to get more complex responses and combinations of responses. It's hard to describe as it's such a subjective and individual experience, but I try to identify what I'm feeling, identify what core aspect of what I've just listened to is responsible for that response, and then learn how to use that in numerous different ways. Then you can use it both ways 'I want this feel, I'll use this note/chord/idea/phrase...', but also for transcription 'it's got that feel, therefore it has this note/chord/idea/phrase'. You can call this your 'vocabulary' if you like. As others say, you slowly build up your vocabulary based on hearing, learning and internalising new ideas and building on them. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 [quote name='charic' post='351944' date='Dec 11 2008, 05:02 PM']....I recently joined a band and was all going great until it came to learning the originals. We went to learn them and they refused to give me any basic chord structure or anything of the sort. Telling me that if I stuck at it I should easily pick it up at a later point. After 2 days of struggling on and trying to pick it up I asked for a hand and consequently got dropped from the band....[/quote] They sound like a bunch of tw@ts to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM1 Posted December 12, 2008 Author Share Posted December 12, 2008 [quote name='charic' post='351944' date='Dec 11 2008, 05:02 PM']Well as this has recently been an issue for me i thought id put in my 2p lol. I recently joined a band and was all going great until it came to learning the originals. We went to learn them and they refused to give me any basic chord structure or anything of the sort. Telling me that if I stuck at it I should easily pick it up at a later point. After 2 days of struggling on and trying to pick it up I asked for a hand and consequently got dropped from the band. Now to explain the situation. Im a bassist of 2 and a bit years and keyboard player of 17+. I originally and have always learnt by notation/tab. Powertab being that which I lean to for bass. I dont usually think this limits me as if someone can tell me what chords or notes or even frets they play then I can easily work out the best bassline I see fit and also hear in my head. My problem is finding "the starting point". I wouldnt say I have a musical ear at all. Atleast for learning by ear. However for picking up rhythm and adding extra notes I can easily hear where it can go to etc. I don't usually think im limited, I just think I need to find slightly more.... patient guitarist/s. Rik[/quote] Heya Ric Those guys sound like a bunch of f***s. It is their loss not yours, don't let the bastards grind you down! You can train your ear but you can't train bad attitudes! Cheers AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cytania Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Hi Ric, yeah that sounds a bit rubbish. Part of being in a band is helping each other. You should hear me in some past rehearsals singing the chords 'A A A G F A A A' to get my idea of the changes over to the guitars, must sound stupid but sometime that was what was needed. Groups have power relationships. Guitarists often think it's all about them. Which is like the bodywork thinking it's what makes a car go fast. Make sure you and the drums are working right and then let the guitars know if they are ahead/behind. As regards songs if you can crack the key, then you can play that note good and low in a meaningful way (take cue off the bass drum if needs be). I did this for a Green Day song I hadn't even heard until a few weeks before we played it live. No one noticed my lack of flash playing. Song was 'Wake Me Up When September Ends' which is a guitar and drum fest. Bass role was to rumble with the drummer in G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 [quote name='charic' post='351944' date='Dec 11 2008, 05:02 PM'][b]they refused to give me any basic chord structure or anything of the sort. [/b][/quote] That's the point at which I would have left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 (edited) I did an audition once for a London band. After a first run through of the tune I was to play, I asked, 'it's in C, isn't it'? 'We don't bother with that muso s***' the guitarist said. 'We just play what we feel' I smiled at him, made my excuses and left. Edited December 16, 2008 by bilbo230763 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 Y'know, I don't think I've done any gigs recently where I've been given a chord chart. Usually, they run around the chords a few times or, if I'm lucky, I get a demo to listen to beforehand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 [quote name='wateroftyne' post='355634' date='Dec 16 2008, 09:14 AM']Y'know, I don't think I've done any gigs recently where I've been given a chord chart. Usually, they run around the chords a few times or, if I'm lucky, I get a demo to listen to beforehand.[/quote] High production values, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 It seems to work OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 It happens a lot in jazz ('I'll start, you join in. You'll pick it up' ). It works sometimes and crashes and burns badly at others! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 Ah.. by 'gigs' I mean the rehearsal before the gig! It does occasionally happen that I have to busk during a gig, but thankfully not too often.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 It's pretty dependent on what the ultimate goal is. If it's just for the sheer enjoyment of the performers, just go for it; if it's for recording or a set performance, then take the guess work out of it and give your musicians some chord charts. At least tell them what it is they're meant to be playing correctly. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 I've got nothing against busking it when necessary or a nice jam but when someone new asks what's the chord sequence or what's the arrangement or even what key do you want it in, it seems to me unsupportive not to have a straight answer and not the kind of band I would want to play in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 + another one - its either laziness or a pitiful attempt to hide the fact that they don't actually KNOW what key the song is in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='355728' date='Dec 16 2008, 10:37 AM']+ another one - its either laziness or [b]a pitiful attempt to hide the fact that they don't actually KNOW what key the song is in[/b].[/quote] +1. Or even don't know what the chords are called. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I have been thinking about this a lot lately. You gotta read, guys, you just gotta. Do it. Now. Start learning today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 No I don't. So there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 You gotta, mate. You really have. It opens up a world of possibilities. Do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 *opens diary* *surveys wide range of forthcoming musical engagements* Nope.. not needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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