Playing by ear Vs. reading music

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='476969' date='May 1 2009, 01:11 PM']If all you aspire to is getting a good audience reaction (direct or indirect), then you are in for an easy ride - I can give you the set list and you are away.

If you want to create something that is a little more profound, original, creative, ambitious etc you will have to resign yourself to smaller and smaller indications of acceptance and be satisfied with the knowledge that YOU know it is better. You will also leave yourself wide open to criticism from those that believe that anything you can't dance to serves no purpose.

In a nutshell, it is an art vs craft debate. I prefer music as art rather than commerce; my funeral [/quote]

Y'see.. this is where you lose me. You seem to think that anything that is attractive to a sizeable number of people is musically worthless. That could be perceived as arrogance.

Whereas I know that I've spent most of my musical life playing original material to music fans who pay good money to listen, and only very occasionally to dance.

Depending on the gig, some of it is beautifully crafted tunes, some of it is rock and roll that'll make you shake your arse off.

You're happy in your profound world, though... that's fine. Good on ya. I'm just not a profound person, I guess.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='476982' date='May 1 2009, 01:24 PM']But again, its the Skegness Theatre argument.[/quote]

I've played at Butlins in Skegness. The money was good, but I felt dirty afterwards. Never again.

[ironside1966]

Which is the better guitar to have a Start or a les Paul?

Answer Both

Most People will agree with that?

Reading or Ear?

Answer Both, big argument.

You can have more then one skill.

[stevie]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='476982' date='May 1 2009, 01:24 PM']But again, its the Skegness Theatre argument. Good for you, but I have no desire to play those songs. The musicians I play will will never have heard of them. If I were to play them, I wouldn't play the bass line as recorded.[/quote]
There's all kind of stuff out there. You should be able to find whatever music you're interested in. But being able to read - even if it's just a bit - is the key. Works for me anyway.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='476996' date='May 1 2009, 01:35 PM']Whereas I know that I've spent most of my musical life playing original material to music fans who pay good money to listen[/quote]



Ah, well then they're not music fans. True music fans don't like anything that's popular enough for people to want to see. A true muso is at home searching for obscure jazz out-takes from Archie Stilton's "difficult" second album.

It's pretty simple WoT:

Enjoyable music = Worthless

Obscure Jazz noodling used during water-boarding = Worthwhile

[Bilbo]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='476996' date='May 1 2009, 01:35 PM']Y'see.. this is where you lose me. You seem to think that anything that is attractive to a sizeable number of people is musically worthless. That could be perceived as arrogance.[/quote]

Not always, just mostly

That's not my point at all. My point is that, because I play and listen to music a lot, most mainstream stuff loses its appeal very quickly. Whatever I thought of 'Canteloupe ISalnd' the first time I heard it, I got bored of it in 1985 so, despite the fact that people ask for it, I won't play it. Call it arrogance if you like. I think its about the fact that one day soon I am going to die and and I don't think I will be lying there thinking 'I wish I had played Cantloupe Island just one more time'!

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='476996' date='May 1 2009, 01:35 PM']Whereas I know that I've spent most of my musical life playing original material to music fans who pay good money to listen, and only very occasionally to dance..[/quote]

Good for you. I haven't. I have spent my musical life playing mediocre music to people who aren't listening anyway which is ok because they didn't pay.

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='476996' date='May 1 2009, 01:35 PM']Your happy in your profound world, though... that's fine. Good on ya. I'm just not a profound person, I guess.[/quote]

Am I? I have played about a dozen gigs in my life that were that good. Mostly, I am just huntin' the white whale!!

It's not the kill, its the thrill of the chase!

[dlloyd]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='476955' date='May 1 2009, 12:57 PM']Ah aha ha. Very funny. University of Central Lancashire. Joint Honours, Bachelor of Arts in Music & The Creative Arts and Performance Technology. And you can save whatever Mickey Mouse comments I'm sure you have in store, because I'd rather you didn't unwittingly insult the former tutors and now close friends of mine who wrote the course.[/quote]

Is that Preston Poly?

[The Funk]

There seems to be an interesting sub-plot emerging about taking your destiny into your own hands v. leaving things to fate - and it seems like those divisions have nothing to do with whether you're a reader or not.

[wateroftyne]

Right.. now we're getting somewhere!

[quote]I have spent my musical life playing mediocre music to people who aren't listening anyway which is ok because they didn't pay.[/quote]

[quote]I've spent most of my musical life playing original material to music fans who pay good money[/quote]

Roll up, roll up, ladies and gentlemen!

Which one of these quotes is from someone who insists that it's essential to have reading skills?

[The Funk]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='476996' date='May 1 2009, 01:35 PM']Y'see.. this is where you lose me. You seem to think that anything that is attractive to a sizeable number of people is musically worthless.[/quote]

Agreed, although I do get Bilbo's explanation further down.

It seems like there's another debate to be had about whether music is a form of self-expression or a method of communication.

[stevie]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='476955' date='May 1 2009, 12:57 PM']Ah aha ha. Very funny. University of Central Lancashire. Joint Honours, Bachelor of Arts in Music & The Creative Arts and Performance Technology. And you can save whatever Mickey Mouse comments I'm sure you have in store, because I'd rather you didn't unwittingly insult the former tutors and now close friends of mine who wrote the course.[/quote]
OK - I'll leave the Mickey Mouse comments (tempted though I am).

[quote name='maxrossell' post='476955' date='May 1 2009, 12:57 PM']And scored as in written the music for. Variously, horns, strings, percussion, keys and vocals. On a couple of occasions for an orchestra, although if by "full" you mean 100+, not really. more like 25 at most. However we made it just fine without a single piece of written classical notation.[/quote]
I'm trying to imagine how you got a 25-piece orchestra to play together without any written music, although the fact that you were able to do this at all is a tribute to your abilities. But my question is - wouldn't it have been easier to have arranged the music in standard notation and printed out parts for everyone to read?

Edited May 1, 2009 by stevie

[Bilbo]

[quote name='The Funk' post='477052' date='May 1 2009, 02:31 PM']It seems like there's another debate to be had about whether music is a form of self-expression or a method of communication.[/quote]

It's both and more, sometimes at the same time and sometimes not.

'Which one of these quotes is from someone who insists that it's essential to have reading skills?

Too easy, WoT. There are other factors; geography is a big one, the ability to take risks, willingness to 'go pro', social & business skills, financial security (the only people I know personally who have gone on to get proper record deals have been those who had wealthy parents who could underwrite their activities. The rest of us had to go and get jobs! This riches to riches story is also true of Miles Davis and the Marsalis Brothers).

It is also true to say that some of us are less able to recognise the mediocrity of what we do whilst others have standards that are so high that they will never be achieved. I could have said I have recorded loads of great cds, played with several A-list jazzers and have written some cracking material but I haven't. But I can say that what I HAVE done, such as it is, was all the better because I can read.

And that, after all, is what we are discussing.

[BigBeefChief]

Just out of interest Bilbo, what type of music do you think you'd be listening to/playing if you had never bothered learning to read? Would you still be playing?

I know it's a difficult question to answer, but be interested to hear your thoughts.

[wateroftyne]

Here's a direct question for you, Bilbo.

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='477066' date='May 1 2009, 02:45 PM']some of us are less able to recognise the mediocrity of what we do[/quote]

Given that I'm happy with my ever-evolving music career, do you consider me to be one of those poeple?

[The Funk]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='477066' date='May 1 2009, 02:45 PM']It's both and more, sometimes at the same time and sometimes not.[/quote]

I agree with that.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='477072' date='May 1 2009, 02:49 PM']Given that I'm happy with my ever-evolving music career, do you consider me to be one of those poeple?[/quote]

I have no opinion as I don't know how well you play or the nature of the work you do. But I will offer this.

There are 1,000s of band's across this country, all trying for a record deal or some other form of professional 'break'. Some of them will get lucky, some won't but what I can say is that the one's that won't are a great deal easier to spot than those that will. Bad singers (a band's death knell), poor rhythm sections, weak material etc. Why do you think record companies often only sign singers and songwriters and not whole bands? If I look back through my career, the bands that have failed have failed because they are flawed, a fact any A& R man worth his salt will spot in 2 minutes; usually the problem is the singer but occasionally one or more weak players pulling the whole thing down. There is also the question of the material. A lot of it sucked, to a greater or lesser extent but, even when it was good, it was only good, not great.

What is apparent is that many people are too easily satisfied with a level of playing that is merely adequate. Unmusical drummers are the most common (how hard can drumming for AC/DC actually be?); ego-centric guitar players that are driven by the wrong motives, bass players that drag, horn players that are out of tune etc etc. Trouble is, for many of us, its Hobson's choice: leave the band and do nothing. So we stay and put up with the medicority in the hope that a, it will improve, b, there will be a change resulting in an improvement or, c, something better will come along.

As for BBC's query:

I was listening to jazz before I learned to read so can only assume my direction of travel was already set. I am 100% confident that reading has helped me grow as a listener as much as it has a player but, no, I wouldn't still be playing Heavy Metal!

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='477120' date='May 1 2009, 03:53 PM']I have no opinion as I don't know how well you play or the nature of the work you do. But I will offer this.

There are 1,000s of band's across this country, all trying for a record deal or some other form of professional 'break'. Some of them will get lucky, some won't but what I can say is that the one's that won't are a great deal easier to spot than those that will. Bad singers (a band's death knell), poor rhythm sections, weak material etc. Why do you think record companies often only sign singers and songwriters and not whole bands? If I look back through my career, the bands that have failed have failed because they are flawed, a fact any A& R man worth his salt will spot in 2 minutes; usually the problem is the singer but occasionally one or more weak players pulling the whole thing down. There is also the question of the material. A lot of it sucked, to a greater or lesser extent but, even when it was good, it was only good, not great.

What is apparent is that many people are too easily satisfied with a level of playing that is merely adequate. Unmusical drummers are the most common (how hard can drumming for AC/DC actually be?); ego-centric guitar players that are driven by the wrong motives, bass players that drag, horn players that are out of tune etc etc. Trouble is, for many of us, its Hobson's choice: leave the band and do nothing. So we stay and put up with the medicority in the hope that a, it will improve, b, there will be a change resulting in an improvement or, c, something better will come along.[/quote]

Thankfully, none of this applies to me... or the question asked, for that matter.

Every drummer I regularly play with is a genius, and every singer & songwriter I work which is something pretty special. It's a nice situation to be in.

Really, I think it boils down to your perception of music, and your goals. Everyone's different, and it's all perfectly vaild.

Well.. most of it. Some of it sucks.

IMO.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='stevie' post='477054' date='May 1 2009, 02:31 PM']I'm trying to imagine how you got a 25-piece orchestra to play together without any written music, although the fact that you were able to do this at all is a tribute to your abilities. But my question is - wouldn't it have been easier to have arranged the music in standard notation and printed out parts for everyone to read?[/quote]

Actually no, because not all of the performers could read music either.

For everyone a few pieces of paper with instructions written in plain English, including the structures of the pieces, the chord changes, the beats and bars and the names of the notes they'd'd be playing were sufficient to guide them through rehearsals, everyone understood perfectly what was going on, and at no point did anyone - readers and non-readers alike - express that they'd rather have had classical notation to follow.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='stevie' post='476976' date='May 1 2009, 01:18 PM']I wonder how many of you non-readers realize how much music is available for free on the web. There are literally thousands of midi and Guitar Pro arrangements all over the place with a full bass line. For example, following the recent thread here on Blues tunes, I downloaded the following midi files earlier today for a practice session tonight – me and my trusty laptop orchestra.

Crossroads
Born under a Bad Sign
Thrill is Gone
Into the Night
Cocaine
I Shot the Sheriff
Lay Down Sally
Tears in Heaven
Wonderful Tonight
Need Your Love So Bad
Pride and Joy
Texas Flood

And while I was at it, I picked up a few others that I fancy playing.

Jessica
Walking in Memphis
Don’t Let Me Be Lonely Tonight
Birdland
And some some others including a few jazz standards and Air on a G String for string quartet.

I’ve only played two or three of these before but I will probably get most of them 90 percent down this evening. [b]I certainly couldn't do it without the dots.[/b] It takes longer to actually memorize them, of course.

I’ve only been playing for two years but I decided right from the start that I was going to learn to read. It’s made all the difference. I suspect that reading from the very outset is the way to do it, rather than learning to read once you can already play. As this thread makes only too clear, it is easy to find a perfectly reasonable excuse why you need not bother.[/quote]

Bingo. I could figure out the parts to all of these tracks 100% in one evening by ear. Because when you do it the way I've been doing it since I was about thirteen, you don't need to either find some sheet music or feel crippled without it.

So what's your excuse for not having bothered to train your ear to the same standard I have?

[lowdown]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='477510' date='May 2 2009, 08:08 AM']Bingo. I could figure out the parts to all of these tracks 100% in one evening by ear. Because when you do it the way I've been doing it since I was about thirteen, you don't need to either find some sheet music or feel crippled without it.

So what's your excuse for not having bothered to train your ear to the same standard I have?[/quote]

Perhaps he has not been playing so long as you..maybe only a couple of years.
His ears might be developing as we speak.
Its no big deal to busk them tunes, and if you have been doing them since you where 13....
there is no excuse for not knowing them.
Infact every one of them is piss easy, with a trained ear [ reader or not ]


Garry

[maxrossell]

[quote name='lowdown' post='477521' date='May 2 2009, 08:41 AM']Perhaps he has not been playing so long as you..maybe only a couple of years.
His ears might be developing as we speak.
Its no big deal to busk them tunes, and if you have been doing them since you where 13....
there is no excuse for not knowing them.
Infact every one of them is piss easy, with a trained ear [ reader or not ]


Garry[/quote]

Exactly. Only two years in, and he's taking the piss out of my qualifications and openly doubting my musical abilities despite the fact that I've got over a decade of musicianship on him, all because he can almost sight-read a handful of pub-rock standards. He's making the assumption, as are many of the other, more experienced people in this discussion, that non-readers are just not capable of some of the things that readers are.

[lowdown]

[quote name='stevie' post='476947' date='May 1 2009, 12:46 PM']There are plenty of fine musicians who can't read but I suspect that a first-class degree in busking isn't worth the paper it's written on. What college is it from?

And what do you mean by 'scored' - written out the chord charts? Nothing wrong with that, but if you wanted to arrange music for a full orchestra you'd be a bit stuck not being able to read. Unless you were Paul McCartney, of course.[/quote]

If you mean this, i am not sure he is taking the piss.
Maybe you see it as so.
But i think he might have a point in a 'degree in busking'
No director/producer in the world would invite you to conduct there Orchestra....
with 'a degree in busking',
Reading yes....

As for me, i do them both very well...
So find this post very,very amusing......

Garry

Edited May 2, 2009 by lowdown

[maxrossell]

[quote name='lowdown' post='477533' date='May 2 2009, 09:05 AM']If you mean this, i am not sure he taking the piss.
Maybe you see it as so.
But i think he might have a point in a 'degree in busking'
No director/producer in the world would invite you to conduct there Orchestra....
with 'a degree in busking',
Reading yes....[/quote]

Really? Then why have I been hired three times by two separate directors to conduct orchestras? Or does it not count if I also wrote the music they were playing? And yeah, in one case it was because of my degree in "busking", which, not that you'd know, is a legitimate degree in creative composition and production technology that I moved to England and worked my arse off for three years to achieve.

In this thread I've also tried to point out on several occasions that I do see the value of being able to read classical notation. But it would really help if some of the people who can read it weren't so sodding arrogant and condescending about it.

[lowdown]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='477537' date='May 2 2009, 09:18 AM']Or does it not count if I [b]also wrote the music [/b]they were playing?[/quote]

There you are...You should know your own.
Conducting other peoples scores is another ballgame.



Garry

[maxrossell]

[quote name='lowdown' post='477545' date='May 2 2009, 09:35 AM']There you are...You should know your own.
Conducting other peoples scores is another ballgame.



Garry[/quote]

Yeah, and I wouldn't presume to if I couldn't read it, and never claimed I would, so I don't know what the point that you're failing to make is.