drTStingray Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 (edited) Ever wondered why they were so rare (till the early/mid 60s)? This article covers it well - nice to see someone using the Melody Maker for research 😏 👍 https://reverb.com/uk/news/the-british-guitar-embargo-when-brits-were-banned-from-buying-american Apparently although there were import restrictions, when they were lifted distributors tended to import from Europe and elsewhere initially. Jet Harris's first Precision appears to have been bought by him sometime later in 1959 after his Besson Star (by Framus) was damaged in a theatre dressing room. The fiesta red bass came about subsequently with the Shadows matching look - later replaced by white instruments and later still, white Burns instruments. Edited September 12, 2018 by drTStingray Got link to work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 Another reason US instruments were few and far between in the UK back then. . . was price. I bought my Fender Precision in 1969 for just over £90. I was living in Brussels and they gave me a discount price because I was a pro musician. The UK didn't give discounts on musical instruments. Others were allowed reduced tax on "tools of the trade" like cameras but musicians had to pay full whack. So my £90 was actually about £122 in the UK and that would have been about £1900 in today's money. Very few working musicians in the UK could afford that, which why so many were using Framus, Hofner, Burns, Kay etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drTStingray Posted September 8, 2018 Author Share Posted September 8, 2018 Interesting - I know in 1973 the Precision I had my eyes on was £252 new (it was natural finish) - that represented around 30% of my annual salary.......equivant to about £4500 now (based on 30% of minimum wage at 40 hrs per week)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obbm Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 It was similar in 1963 when as a schoolboy I was looking to buy my first bass. I had to get my mother to lend me £45 to buy a Framus and pay her back slowly. I didn't dare ask for any more as a Fender Precision was about double that and a Jazz was even more. When I started work the following year my salary was a whole £520 a year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drTStingray Posted September 8, 2018 Author Share Posted September 8, 2018 So what was the bass of the UK player between say 1955 and 1965 - there seem to be big shouts for Hofner and Framus from what I've read - anyone any views/knowledge? I know Jet's appearance with a Precision was highly influential. When did Herbie get his Jazz - although it won't have had quite the exposure of Jet's P bass (and subsequent Bass V1). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obbm Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 Burns and Watkins were popular in the early 60s. I wanted a Precision as soon as I saw the Sunburst one on the cover photo of the Shadows first album. Just about the only tuition book for bass around this time was this, published in about 1960. It also includes a picture of the Shadows with Jet's Sunburst P and several other bands with various basses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassassin Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 Did a lot of reading about Watkins after I picked up a Rapier III at a car boot for £6.50! It was designed from the ground up to be a Strat-style guitar, simply because real ones weren't available in the UK at the time. Think Hank Marvin played a Rapier before he got that red Strat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 The first guitarist I played with used a Futurama 2 Deluxe. When we started practising together I switched to playing bass lines on my awful and impossible-to-play-chords Spanish guitar. Bass playing. What a revelation that was! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kodiakblair Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 It was all Burns for my old pal's band. They were ticked up to the hilt but saved money on stage clothes,drummer worked for Burton's Menswear and "borrowed" suits 😃 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorR Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 You guys really need to get a copy of Mo Foster’s iconic book which covers this era of Rock n Roll in the UK, with amazing insights from the key players of the time... available in several editions it was originally called “17 Watts?” But was reissued a while back in an expanded edition as... https://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Rock-Guitar-Musicians-Stories/dp/0857160001/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1536430470&sr=8-1&keywords=Mo+Foster 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 +1 for this ^^. A great read, and read again, and again... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassace Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 I played a Jazz in 1963 it was already owned by the band I joined. Then in 65 I bought my own second hand for £100 through Melody Maker small ads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drTStingray Posted September 9, 2018 Author Share Posted September 9, 2018 On 8 September 2018 at 13:01, obbm said: Burns and Watkins were popular in the early 60s. I wanted a Precision as soon as I saw the Sunburst one on the cover photo of the Shadows first album. Just about the only tuition book for bass around this time was this, published in about 1960. It also includes a picture of the Shadows with Jet's Sunburst P and several other bands with various basses. The John Barry 7 - there's an interesting thought! John Barry being responsible for some great film and TV theme music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drTStingray Posted September 9, 2018 Author Share Posted September 9, 2018 (edited) On 8 September 2018 at 19:18, TrevorR said: You guys really need to get a copy of Mo Foster’s iconic book which covers this era of Rock n Roll in the UK, with amazing insights from the key players of the time... available in several editions it was originally called “17 Watts?” But was reissued a while back in an expanded edition as... https://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Rock-Guitar-Musicians-Stories/dp/0857160001/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1536430470&sr=8-1&keywords=Mo+Foster Thanks for reminding me of this book Trevor - I don't have it but am placing an order. I associate Mo more with the 70s but I'm sure this is a good read and crosses the decades. The pertinent early 60s period for The Shadows (and with Cliff Richard) for basses, for those interested was:- Jet Harris buys sunburst Precision (probably to replace Besson Star semi acoustic (made by Framus) damaged in a theatre dressing room) - late 1959 (nb Hank receives his fiesta red/maple Strat privately imported by Cliff Richard - March 59). Replaced by fiesta red Precision/ rosewood around March 1961 - the 'all three matching guitars' look appeared a little later in 1961 (all with rosewood boards). Jet left The Shadows in 1962 replaced by Brian 'Licorice' Locking who used (likely) the same fiesta red Precision until mid 63. Mid 63 the band changed to white Fenders in time for the release/promotion of the single Atlantis. Nov 63 Locking leaves and is replaced by John Rostill who uses (probably the same) white Precision. 1964 - the band change to white Burns guitars and appear with them for the promotion of the single The Rise and Fall of Flingel Bunt. The all three FR Fenders, all three white Fenders and all three white Burns appear to have been part of endorsement deals. The astonishing thing about this is that the FR P bass was only around from early 61 to mid 63 - an amazingly short time given the power of the three FR Fenders image/legend. Edited September 12, 2018 by drTStingray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obbm Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 51 minutes ago, drTStingray said: The John Barry 7 - there's an interesting thought! John Barry being responsible for some great film and TV theme music. … and of course, "Hit and Miss", the theme music for Juke Box Jury. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorR Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, drTStingray said: The John Barry 7 - there's an interesting thought! John Barry being responsible for some great film and TV theme music. He was a pop star/writer before he was known as a film composer. Sadly not on iplayer at at the moment but this programme had a great section on John Barry, his move into cinema and the Bond soundtracks https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03b965y Edited September 9, 2018 by TrevorR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassace Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 We played support to the John Barry 7 at Dorking Halls in the late fifties. First time I ever saw/heard a bass guitar. In those days it was cool in some places for the dancers not to applaud the band. No me neither. Anyway we played our set and got nothing back from the audience. It’ll all change with JB7 I thought. Except that it didn’t, There was a stoney silence. So on the changeover I said to JB ‘what can you do with a crowd like this?’ ‘I’d feck the lot ofem came back’ ‘What, all of them? You’ll have a job’ I said. ‘I’ll have a fecking good try’ he replied. To date that has been my sole conversation with the Great Man. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drTStingray Posted September 11, 2018 Author Share Posted September 11, 2018 (edited) So once you've come by your Fender Precision, no mean feat and extremely expensive (comparatively) imagine the lot of the famous bass player in the early 60s, having to play live through a Vox AC30 whilst the rythmn and lead guitarists both play though amps of a similar output, there is a drummer (and we all know how loud they are) all with no PA support - so your hard earned Precision bass will likely sound like a hive of demented wasps owing to the level of unintended distortion and sound break up.... Indeed the reason quoted for non release of a Shadows live recording from 1962. Edited September 11, 2018 by drTStingray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drTStingray Posted September 11, 2018 Author Share Posted September 11, 2018 On 9 September 2018 at 17:57, bassace said: We played support to the John Barry 7 at Dorking Halls in the late fifties. First time I ever saw/heard a bass guitar. In those days it was cool in some places for the dancers not to applaud the band. No me neither. Anyway we played our set and got nothing back from the audience. It’ll all change with JB7 I thought. Except that it didn’t, There was a stoney silence. So on the changeover I said to JB ‘what can you do with a crowd like this?’ ‘I’d feck the lot ofem came back’ ‘What, all of them? You’ll have a job’ I said. ‘I’ll have a fecking good try’ he replied. To date that has been my sole conversation with the Great Man. V interesting - he's quoted as moving from dance bands to a smaller group doing pop and other things owing to the tail off of demand for dance bands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassace Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 Yes, 18 piece dance bands were becoming uneconomical and smaller aggregations, with amplification, we’re becoming the norm and just as effective. There was the JB7 and at that time The Eric Delaney Band followed the same route. We used to play on the same bill from time to time. They were still using upright bass with an amp and they had Tony Fisher, today one of the very best trumpet session men and Alan Skidmore on Sax. There was also a shy teenager with her first job on vocals; Elaine Mansfield who later became Elkie Brooks. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 9 hours ago, drTStingray said: So once you've come by your Fender Precision, no mean feat and extremely expensive (comparatively) imagine the lot of the famous bass player in the early 60s, having to play live through a Vox AC30 The Vox Foundation was also available at the time. 50 watts and a 118. I had one. Nothing but extreme woolliness. You guys think you can get a bad sound today!!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 9 hours ago, drTStingray said: ...there is a drummer (and we all know how loud they are) ... Drum kits were very different 'back then', too, and, as you mention, there was no micing up of the drums, either (so no over-loud foldback for the drummer to try to drown out...). Look up 'Edgware' drums, for instance, or look at the typical ride cymbals used at the time. Few drummers had money for those 'washy' Swiss cymbals; even less the American ones. No, loud wasn't the 'norme' then for drummers, I'd say. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertbass Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 Don't forget Gigster and Ajax drums, Zyn and Super Zyn cymbals. I shan't mention Krut or sizzle cymbals. Horrible things! Premier drums were around at the time as well and the cheaper Olympic. They all seemed pretty loud to me at the time, actually, they seem pretty loud now as well even though they're over 50 years old. Just didn't sound so good, but then maybe that was the drummers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 1 hour ago, bertbass said: Don't forget Gigster and Ajax drums, Zyn and Super Zyn cymbals. I shan't mention Krut or sizzle cymbals. Horrible things! Premier drums were around at the time as well and the cheaper Olympic. They all seemed pretty loud to me at the time, actually, they seem pretty loud now as well even though they're over 50 years old. Just didn't sound so good, but then maybe that was the drummers. You're right in saying they didn't sound so good..! Any hard hitters would have to be quite rich, though, as drumsticks were of inferior quality, too, and a rim-shot, although impressively loud, would be difficult to repeat, as the stick would likely shatter..! Many drummers used brushes, too (skiffle..? jazz..? no punk yet, so...). The famous quote from the Mo Foster book 'What are we going to need all these 17 watts for..?' is quite telling. Things did get loud quickly enough, I'll grant, but I wouldn't put all the blame on having to match the drum volume. But then, I would say that, wouldn't I..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drTStingray Posted September 12, 2018 Author Share Posted September 12, 2018 Id heard Ludwig drums were very loud - my own experience also!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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