Items lost in the post - getting a refund.

[Reggaebass]

That’s interesting. If someone pays with PayPal and collects  how can you be scammed 

[fleabag]

@T-bay

The safest option is collection only / cash payment.  You do not have to accept Paypal for collection only items. Thats fact, and due to the well known scam you speak of.

There are no comebacks whatsoever with that method

Edited August 18, 2018 by fleabag

[fleabag]

8 minutes ago, Reggaebass said:

That’s interesting. If someone pays with PayPal and collects  how can you be scammed 

The well known scam is buyer pays by PP.  They arrange collection in person with seller.  Buyer collects item and when they get home, they do PP charge back, saying seller was not home when they turned up

Seller cannot prove buyer took the goods.  Paypal refunds buyer

Edited August 18, 2018 by fleabag

[Reggaebass]

Wow That’s worth knowing. Nice one fleabag 👍

[dannybuoy]

I prefer to accept F&F payments when selling, especially from new forum members, as the alternative is I get charged a fee and open myself up to someone scamming me as PayPal always side with the buyer.

I only buy insurance for very expensive items or exotic locations, otherwise I just use a tracked service, but will (and have done) issue a refund if something genuinely goes missing. The thing about insurance, it’s just like gambling on if your parcel will go missing or not. I could send a 100 parcels and spend a few hundred quid on insurance, or go without and if I’m lucky I’ll get to keep it! Chances that several will go missing and exceed the sum spent on insurance will be slim, as the odds are stacked in favour of those selling the insurance.

[Hellzero]

1 hour ago, fleabag said:

The well known scam is buyer pays by PP.  They arrange collection in person with seller.  Buyer collects item and when they get home, they do PP charge back, saying seller was not home when they turned up

Seller cannot prove buyer took the goods.  Paypal refunds buyer

Easy to prove he collected the goods if you make an invoice with names, addresses, price, date, signature, description and in two exemplars : that's what I always do. So PayPal or cash or Western Union or whatever, it doesn't make a difference, you will be protected.

[Hellzero]

And in the case of the OP, PayPal F&F is absolutely not the problem. The problem is the lack of insurance by the seller, who must refund you as the contract (buying anything is a contract even if it is not signed, according to the law) as not been fulfilled. I always include insurance in what I'm selling except if the buyer accepts to take the risk. And even though, I prefer to loose a bit of money on a cheap insurance, than all the money of the sale. Think about it.

[Woodinblack]

37 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

Easy to prove he collected the goods if you make an invoice with names, addresses, price, date, signature, description and in two exemplars : that's what I always do. So PayPal or cash or Western Union or whatever, it doesn't make a difference, you will be protected.

Would rather not take that chance, I never take paypal for local pickup

[fleabag]

39 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

Easy to prove he collected the goods if you make an invoice with names, addresses, price, date, signature, description and in two exemplars : that's what I always do. So PayPal or cash or Western Union or whatever, it doesn't make a difference, you will be protected.

And what if the buyer says it wasn't him and his account was hacked ?  It's been done before.

The safest and most foolproof answer for collect only items is cash.

[T-Bay]

42 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

Easy to prove he collected the goods if you make an invoice with names, addresses, price, date, signature, description and in two exemplars : that's what I always do. So PayPal or cash or Western Union or whatever, it doesn't make a difference, you will be protected.

Possibly if you are prepared to go to small claims court, PayPal just pay out to what they decide is the injured party and no matter what hand written evidence and photos of number plates you may have they really don’t care. So sadly you will NOT be protected by PayPal in such circumstances. Selller beware in these cases.

 

[fleabag]

The Policy on items sold in  the  Ebay / Paypal user agreement is that they will only accept proof  by means of a trackable method.  Of course, there is no way you can send Ebay or Paypal proof that the buyer has their item by sending  proof of this, as they collected in person.

Photos, signed receipts,  photos of their car might be useful for the police, but Ebay / Paypal will not accept this.  Try sending a photo of someone signing a receipt in your living room for any disputes, and see how far you get

 

" You can photograph the buyer collecting the item, video them, get half a dozen neighbours round as witnesses, take DNA samples and yet none of this will be acceptable to PayPal and offer you any Seller Protection at all.

Nor will the advice offered to accept a PayPal Gift payment - you can stil get hit with a chargeback.

To meet the most basic criteria with Seller Protection, you are required to ship the item by trackable means to the address PayPal provide you with.

If you cannot provide a tracking number to prove delivery, you will lose a dispute and could get hit with a chargeback months down the line  (you'll pay £14 as an admin fee for the privilege of losing your money and your item too).

It's all in the PayPal User Agreement in black and white. "

 

Edited August 18, 2018 by fleabag

[Hellzero]

Ok, guys, so a legal invoice signed by both parts with correct addresses (verified via ID cards), dates and description with serial number is no more a real proof. Come on, we are in Europe not in the USA and the eBay/PayPal policy may be written, but is not legal over here. That's the problem with policies : they must be legal. Ask a lawyer, and he will be delighted to explain you how to easily win a trial.

That said, cash on collection is dangerous too, never heard of false money, money laundering or much more simpler basic scam : the buyer goes afterwards to the police and claims that you took his money without giving him what he paid for : how will you manage that ? And this can happen with "normal" payments and shippings fully insured and trackable. 

You want an answer : stop being paranoid, these problems show on only once in a while.

I've done at least 2000 (yes two thousands transactions) and only had one real problem for a stupidly low priced item sold through eBay and paid through PayPal : the guy pretended he never got it and I made the mistake to ship it without tracking number and even if his feedback was full of negative comments for the same reason, I had to refund him. That was the price to pay, since then I learnt the lesson and he has been banned.

[T-Bay]

But have you never heard of fake ID? Legal invoice? Countersigned by whom? I know a guy in the local classic car club who lost just shy of £8k to this very scam it DOES happen. Whilst it may not be common why risk being the victim of any scam? It’s not being paranoid it’s being sensible. Any fraud expert or police officer will tell you that the best scams are those that are an inch off being genuine, so much so that people end up falling for them and losing out. If it’s a £5 item then you haven’t lost much (apart from the fact that as Fleabag has correctly pointed out nice old PayPal turn it into a £20 hit) but any item worth a decent amount, no way. And yes you can get fake cash but there are ways to protect against that as well. It’s just about being careful and minimising the risks. And yes you could take PayPal to court if their terms are illegal, but you would have to have far deeper pockets than mine (and I suspect 99% of the population), that doesn’t make it right but it’s the way it is.

[Hellzero]

Sorry, but it's paranoia if you are thinking of fake ID and all the fakes possible. I've said what I had, so have nothing to add based on common sense. I hate cash transactions even if I own that money checker detector pen.

[Woodinblack]

Does it matter if it’s legal or not if you can’t get PayPal to refund you?

 

And in answer to the specific question, yes, I have heard of fake money etc, but I have never heard of anyone being scammed by it in real life, wheras I have not only heard of but know people who have been scammed by local paypal pickup. Anyone can do that, the fake money is harder to do.

If you are not worried about it happening, you carry on doing it, but I wouldn't do it. Cash on collection or no deal for me.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Woodinblack

[Hellzero]

PayPal will never refund a Friends and Family transaction. Period.

It's up to the seller to do it. Period. 

Sorry to be harsh, but the thread is derailing, again.

[krispn]

I'm just after a refund. I'm not expecting PP to do anything and was just after opinion on if I was being reasonable. It's good to know what my legal recourse might be in other eventualities but unless the seller ponies up it's a bit grim.

 

[Woodinblack]

You are not being unreasonable from my POV - its up to the seller to get the thing to you or return your money.

[Hellzero]

30 minutes ago, krispn said:

I'm just after a refund. I'm not expecting PP to do anything and was just after opinion on if I was being reasonable. It's good to know what my legal recourse might be in other eventualities but unless the seller ponies up it's a bit grim.

 

If you want, I can translate in French anything you want to write to the seller. if this helps, don't hesitate.

[dmccombe7]

i normally use Google translations if required. Think they are ok. I've not had any threats when using them 

Dave

[krispn]

@Hellzero No it's fine but thank you. Like I say he's not being 'difficult' I can understand his position in the sense that he doesn't want to loose out but it is what it is.

Edited August 21, 2018 by krispn