Bigwan Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 13 minutes ago, Happy Jack said: Nope. And I don't believe that you're stupid enough to think that's what I wrote. "for example Fender making "cheap" guitars (branded as Squier) in Japan created jobs and helped to raise the standard of living in Japan to the extent that they moved production to Korea, then to China, then to Indonesia, then to Vietnam, in each case creating a new population of skilled workers earning more than they earned before, and now capable of pushing ahead without further investment from abroad." You wrote that, did you not? What were we to take from that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 Yes he's got a point, but as a maker of small volume hand-made instruments are you really competing with large-scale mass production? IME your customers are very different people. Also I take him a lot more seriously as a master luthier if his web site featured some actual original designs and not rehashed versions the same old suspects... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwan Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 41 minutes ago, skelf said: To be honest I posted it in relation to why instruments cost what they cost not as an argument for or against globalisation which seems to be the only thing the majority seem to take from it. Apologies Alan. I did find the video thought provoking. My first thought was how come Alan doesn't charge more?... I say that fully acknowledging the irony of it considering our recent email conversation! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreeneKing Posted November 23, 2017 Author Share Posted November 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, BigRedX said: Yes he's got a point, but as a maker of small volume hand-made instruments are you really competing with large-scale mass production? IME your customers are very different people. Also I take him a lot more seriously as a master luthier if his web site featured some actual original designs and not rehashed versions the same old suspects... Of course he's competing because for him the big factories are valid competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwan Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, BigRedX said: Also I take him a lot more seriously as a master luthier if his web site featured some actual original designs and not rehashed versions the same old suspects... Same broken record BRX... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreeneKing Posted November 23, 2017 Author Share Posted November 23, 2017 46 minutes ago, skelf said: To be honest I posted it in relation to why instruments cost what they cost not as an argument for or against globalisation which seems to be the only thing the majority seem to take from it. The video of course makes both points very well Alan. One impacts on the other too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, GreeneKing said: Of course he's competing because for him the big factories are valid competition. 5 minutes ago, Bigwan said: Same broken record BRX... And therefore IMO he's made a rod for his own back. If he was doing something original and different (like Alan who has brought this video to our attention) I might have some more sympathy. But by choosing simply to rehash "classic" designs he deliberately sets himself up against the high-volume low cost mass manufacturers, and finds himself in a market where the average musician isn't bothered enough to want to pay the premium for a hand-crafted instrument. So instead of getting on and producing some designs that are truly original he's made a video to have a moan on the internet. Besides the whole point of the Fender-style instrument that make up much of his output is that they were originally designed not to require the skills of a master luthier to produce them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnDave Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 I have to reluctantly agree with BRX on this, in the video he describes himself as an artist, yet most of the guitars on his company's website are essentially copes, or close copies of very traditional designs. Personally, I am conservative in my choice of bass, and half of mine are Fender Precisions. That's the half I play most, as well. My reluctance is because I know how hard things are for any business in Finland (taxation, red tape, distance and weather being the prime factors) and, having spent some of the best years of my life living there, I have every sympathy with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnDave Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 18 hours ago, skelf said: Just out of curiosity did you all watch it to the end. The later half of the video is why I posted it on a bass forum not so much the globalisation aspect at the beginning. I watched it to the very end. I also suspect that the reason many people have latched on to his views on exploitation and ethics is because that was in the first five minutes and it may be all they watched. It's not the most visually stimulating video, to be fair, but it is worth listening to in full. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwan Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, BigRedX said: And therefore IMO he's made a rod for his own back. If he was doing something original and different (like Alan who has brought this video to our attention) I might have some more sympathy. But by choosing simply to rehash "classic" designs he deliberately sets himself up against the high-volume low cost mass manufacturers, and finds himself in a market where the average musician isn't bothered enough to want to pay the premium for a hand-crafted instrument. So instead of getting on and producing some designs that are truly original he's made a video to have a moan on the internet. Besides the whole point of the Fender-style instrument that make up much of his output is that they were originally designed not to require the skills of a master luthier to produce them. I think if everybody in the world played a Gus G3 you'd use a Fender just to be different... Edited November 23, 2017 by Bigwan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Happy Jack said: Nope. And I don't believe that you're stupid enough to think that's what I wrote. 53 minutes ago, Bigwan said: "for example Fender making "cheap" guitars (branded as Squier) in Japan created jobs and helped to raise the standard of living in Japan to the extent that they moved production to Korea, then to China, then to Indonesia, then to Vietnam, in each case creating a new population of skilled workers earning more than they earned before, and now capable of pushing ahead without further investment from abroad." You wrote that, did you not? What were we to take from that? OK, maybe you need to understand that cause (we want to earn bigger profits) does not necessarily correlate to effect (making US workers redundant so that we can employ Vietnamese has resulted in Vietnamese workers getting wealthier), or maybe I need to re-visit my opinion of your intelligence. Your call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwan Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Happy Jack said: OK, maybe you need to understand that cause (we want to earn bigger profits) does not necessarily correlate to effect (making US workers redundant so that we can employ Vietnamese has resulted in Vietnamese workers getting wealthier), or maybe I need to re-visit my opinion of your intelligence. Your call. I don't think I'm misunderstanding anything. What you refer to as a reality is an opinion. One I wholeheartedly disagree with based on my own experience of working for multinational corporations. None of them make guitars but that's beside the point. I'm certainly not misunderstanding you calling me stupid because I don't agree with you. We can discuss your emotional maturity at length if you want, but I'm not sure this is quite the right place! Edited November 23, 2017 by Bigwan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 Excellent! You have now actually read and understood what I wrote, rather than creating a straw-man argument by mis-quoting me. We are able to return to civilised discourse. It's all good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwan Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 20 minutes ago, Happy Jack said: Excellent! You have now actually read and understood what I wrote, rather than creating a straw-man argument by mis-quoting me. You should try your hand at politics... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 Interesting topic. I've made a conscious decision not to buy anything made in China/the Far East in recent years if I can avoid it. Not because I feel workers there are "exploited" (I believe they are to an extent, but the point that they are able to live well on the wages they are paid because the cost of living in those countries is much lower than ours is a fair one), but because I don't want to contribute to the further decline of industries in the West. I'm fortunate, in that I could afford to buy a German PA (I tried to buy British, but the choice was between crap and really expensive stuff I couldn't justify), although I did have to buy a Chinese-built mixer - there was nothing else available (it is an Allen and Heath, but they manufacture in China). I appreciate not everyone is in this fortunate position. My main worry about buying from China et al is that we may get some bargain-priced kit in the short term, but if our economy goes down the tubes because nobody is buying home-grown any longer, we'll lose out in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 2 hours ago, Dan Dare said: Interesting topic. I've made a conscious decision not to buy anything made in China/the Far East in recent years if I can avoid it. Not because I feel workers there are "exploited" (I believe they are to an extent, but the point that they are able to live well on the wages they are paid because the cost of living in those countries is much lower than ours is a fair one), but because I don't want to contribute to the further decline of industries in the West. I'm fortunate, in that I could afford to buy a German PA (I tried to buy British, but the choice was between crap and really expensive stuff I couldn't justify), although I did have to buy a Chinese-built mixer - there was nothing else available (it is an Allen and Heath, but they manufacture in China). I appreciate not everyone is in this fortunate position. My main worry about buying from China et al is that we may get some bargain-priced kit in the short term, but if our economy goes down the tubes because nobody is buying home-grown any longer, we'll lose out in the long run. Very noble, but remember that even if the products you are buying were made in the UK or Europe they are probably assembled from components mostly manufactured in China/Far East. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 5 hours ago, Bigwan said: I think if everybody in the world played a Gus G3 you'd use a Fender just to be different... I happy that everyone has their own opinions and tastes when it comes to their choice of instruments, it makes life interesting. What I am not so happy with is the fact that someone who's main creative output appears to be copies of other well-know designs is having bit of a rant on the internet about other manufacturers being able to produce something similar for a lot less money (especially in light of the fact that a lot of his output is based on instruments that were specifically designed to be mass-produced by relatively unskilled workers). Despite what he might think, he's not an artist. He's a craftsman. He might be a very good craftsman (I haven't played any of his guitars myself so I don't know), but to claim to be an artist is somewhat disingenuous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvia Bluejay Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 Two threads on the same topic - now merged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ead Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 If I remember my economics studies then I think one of the main ways to support developing nations is the removal of tariffs. Won't happen of course so much self-interest in the richer 1st world nations. My only experience of instruments made by a top luthier is ACGs and I have always thought they represent outstanding value for money. I clearly need to declare an interest at this point :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnybass Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 For me the point in the video is about the why, to stop people and make them think about the costs and differences. Almost weekly there are threads about whether X is worth the money or whether Y is overpriced. Ultimately, it comes down to how much you are willing to pay, and for handmade/boutique/luthier built instruments electric basses are relatively inexpensive. If you haven’t bought one..ask a double bass player how much his handmade one off master built to his exact specs cost...different ball game all together Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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