PA, anyone using side fills?

[Phil Starr]

We play in a lot of cramped spaces in pubs with limited floor space and often poor acoustics. Band politics and funds won't allow in ears. We've also had a series of incidents where punters trip over floor monitors and catapult themselves into the band.

Most of our mics are supercardioid rather than cardioid so monitors need to be to one side rather than straight ahead, so I'm thinking that a couple of small PA speakers at ear height would take up less space and potentially be clearer than our current line of floor monitors.

Has anyone tried this?

Edited May 26, 2017 by Phil Starr

[Steve Browning]

That's what we have done on many occasions. We have a singer to one side of the stage and so we have a sidefill over the other side and one at the back next to the drummer with the singer getting a combination of the two and the drummer having the luxury of hearing what's going on!

[AdamWoodBass]

Only time I've used side fills is many years ago in an originals rock band. The frontman ran a really high end PA hire company so we were able to get on the bill for a lot of festivals and outdoor gigs. I'd say they are very useful because they fill the stage and you really get a sense of atmosphere to the gig, we also had wedges at the front but that was pretty much just for vocals. For the band it feels very natural and seems to add a little something to the gig. For the guy doing the front of house mix it's a nightmare from what I understand because they have to ensure the side fills don't bleed into the mix for the FoH system. Typically it's really useful outdoors where accoustics of a room aren't a factor but in a theater or something it can be a pain.

[LITTLEWING]

After last night's gig, I think me and the drummer need to get at least a small combo run from the mixer to have at ear height or angled on the floor. The keys (far right) hit the button for a pre-programmed song and by the time we all kicked in, drummer lost the rhythm a smidge and I was trying to keep somewhere in the middle to keep it all kinda sensible.
Couldn't wait to get to the end of that number!

[Steve Browning]

Our side fills are Alto TX10s and they do the job perfectly. The drummer's one is, indeed, on a short speaker stand so he and I can hear the vocals etc. Works brilliantly.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='AdamWoodBass' timestamp='1495783767' post='3306485']
Only time I've used side fills is many years ago in an originals rock band. The frontman ran a really high end PA hire company so we were able to get on the bill for a lot of festivals and outdoor gigs. I'd say they are very useful because they fill the stage and you really get a sense of atmosphere to the gig, we also had wedges at the front but that was pretty much just for vocals. For the band it feels very natural and seems to add a little something to the gig. For the guy doing the front of house mix it's a nightmare from what I understand because they have to ensure the side fills don't bleed into the mix for the FoH system. Typically it's really useful outdoors where accoustics of a room aren't a factor but in a theater or something it can be a pain.
[/quote] I grew up with the idea of sidefills bleeding into mic's being a problem, but that was in the days of SM58 mics and earlier. The dead spot for those cardioids is looking along the mic straight at the monitor. The AKG's and Sennheisers I use now are super cardioids where the dead spot is offset at about 135 degrees but they are pretty dead from the sides. I've a little personal vocal monitor for just my vocals and it works much better from the side than looking down the barrel. Much less feedback and somehow easier to pick out your voice when it comes from that direction. That's all got me thinking.

Good to hear what you say about atmosphere too.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Steve Browning' timestamp='1495788741' post='3306540']
Our side fills are Alto TX10s and they do the job perfectly. The drummer's one is, indeed, on a short speaker stand so he and I can hear the vocals etc. Works brilliantly.
[/quote]

Thanks Steve it's encouraging me to give it a go. Do you get any feedback problems?

[Steve Browning]

None at all. We're not a super loud band so it all worked brilliantly.

[skidder652003]

Hey Phil are you using those AKG D5's? We have front facing wedges and don't get any feedback, the odd pissed punter falling into us yes, but no feedback

[Phil Starr]

Hi Steve, yes mainly the D5's, feedback rejection is pretty good with them anyway. See you are down at the Marine tonight, I might make it down there if I can escape.

[LewisK1975]

[quote name='skidder652003' timestamp='1495802781' post='3306734']
Hey Phil are you using those AKG D5's? We have front facing wedges and don't get any feedback, the odd pissed punter falling into us yes, but no feedback
[/quote]
[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1495805898' post='3306767']
Hi Steve, yes mainly the D5's, feedback rejection is pretty good with them anyway. See you are down at the Marine tonight, I might make it down there if I can escape.
[/quote]

Interesting - I bought myself an AKG D5 and was ribbed by my bandmates for not buying an SM58.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='LewisK1975' timestamp='1495806826' post='3306773']
Interesting - I bought myself an AKG D5 and was ribbed by my bandmates for not buying an SM58.
[/quote]The last laugh is yours I think. I inadvertently did an A to B test of these two when mixing for a friend. Her SM58 cut out and I swapped mid song with my AKG. The clarity and amount of detail that suddenly appeared was stunning. Not surprising really, the SM58 dates back to 1962 it was great in its time and has been a really reliable performer. Technology and materials science has moved on since then and Shure only make the SM58 because people won't let go. The Beta 58 is their modern offering and is way better than the old SM.

[la bam]

When I did our sound for our last band I had the subs and tops facing outwards towards the crowd then another pair of speakers (srm450s) used as our monitors sat on top of the subs and facing us. Angling the left one 45 degrees to the right and right 45 degrees to the left.
Worked a treat.
Just needed bracing or strapping to keep 100% secure.
Everything was so much more audible, we had more floor space and less cables flapping about across the stage, and no feedback as they dont need driving as hard.

Edited May 26, 2017 by la bam

[ivansc]

Cant understand the comment about spill into foh.

Best setup I ever worked with was in the USA. we had the guitar player lean his two twins back on their chrome stands pointing directly at him.
No more ear bleedingly loud guitar. no spill into FOH
I had my tiny 1x15" Peavey Combo 300 firing sideways across the stage.
Zero bass in FOH
Electronic kit.
huge side fills with a bit of everything meant the onstage sound was excellent and the guy who set it all up (our regular soundman) said it was the easiest gig he had ever mixed for us.
ONE floor wedge for the 2 singers was all they needed.

Well worth trying as an alternative to wedges that get in the way and sound crap.

[mike257]

[quote name='LewisK1975' timestamp='1495806826' post='3306773']



Interesting - I bought myself an AKG D5 and was ribbed by my bandmates for not buying an SM58.
[/quote]

Your bandmates are daft. An SM58 wouldn't even make it into my top five choices for vocals on a small, loud stage.

[Lozz196]

The venue I played on Sunday night was using side-fills, rather than traditional in-front monitors. Works ok, but I do prefer the sound coming straight at me.

[Phil Starr]

Thanks everyone. I'd pictured the side fills on the subs and I guess the proof of the pudding is in the eating so I'm going to give it a go. I'll take a floor monitor for the singer as well, just in case. I'll let you know how I get on. Any more personal experiences welcome.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Phil Starr

[Phil Starr]

I had the chance to try side fills for the first time this w/e. A couple of Wharfedale Titan 12A serving backline and keys with traditional floor monitors for the frontmen. I have to say the sound was great with vocals and keys really in focus over some noisy bass. No feedback issues on a biggish despite the vocalists using cardioid mics, can't weed them off their SM58's

[Gottastopbuyinggear]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1504136632' post='3362981']
I had the chance to try side fills for the first time this w/e. A couple of Wharfedale Titan 12A serving backline and keys with traditional floor monitors for the frontmen. I have to say the sound was great with vocals and keys really in focus over some noisy bass. No feedback issues on a biggish despite the vocalists using cardioid mics, can't weed them off their SM58's
[/quote]

Based on your original post I think we're in a similar position, playing cramped pub "stages" in the main, and we're currently looking into getting some new monitors. Our current floor monitors are lacking in power a bit, and the drummer in particular has a problem with hearing much of the rest of the band, so I'd already been wondering about a small monitor mounted at head height for him. How did you have your side fills mounted - can you get small footprint speaker stands for this?

[uk_lefty]

[quote name='LITTLEWING' timestamp='1495786706' post='3306511']
After last night's gig, I think me and the drummer need to get at least a small combo run from the mixer to have at ear height or angled on the floor. The keys (far right) hit the button for a pre-programmed song and by the time we all kicked in, drummer lost the rhythm a smidge and I was trying to keep somewhere in the middle to keep it all kinda sensible.
Couldn't wait to get to the end of that number!
[/quote]

My drummer has a behringer keyboard combo amp placed next to him at his head height giving him a mix from the desk. We use lots of wedges which seem ok but our guitarist is a pa geek and wants to use side fills instead. I trust him that he is right, he was a soundman for touring function bands for a few years.

[Steve Browning]

[quote name='Gottastopbuyinggear' timestamp='1504180105' post='3363184']
Based on your original post I think we're in a similar position, playing cramped pub "stages" in the main, and we're currently looking into getting some new monitors. Our current floor monitors are lacking in power a bit, and the drummer in particular has a problem with hearing much of the rest of the band, so I'd already been wondering about a small monitor mounted at head height for him. How did you have your side fills mounted - can you get small footprint speaker stands for this?
[/quote]

That's what I use, short speaker stands. They work brilliantly. It is situated between the drummer and me and provides plenty of the vocal.

[Phil Starr]

In a previous band we used a Behringer B205D on a mic stand or the drummer which he quite liked (bought it off me, so he must have done) I think he liked being independent of the main monitors.