Am I wrong in wanting to learn the set/songs properly?

[blue]

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1492244271' post='3278876']
I have always been the one who gets the gigs even though I'm quite new to the area, and every other week after rehearsals I say to all the guys, "can you please try and get gigs in your area's as you know them better than me", of course they all say "ok", but I can honestly say that they never do, because when I repeat the request a couple of weeks later, they usually reply "oh yeah, I'll try", not "I've tried but without success".

I'm now about to put an advert out for a ready made band that needs a bass player, I will stay with these guys for a while, but I'm not going to be taken for granted anymore, if they can get the songs gig ready and get out and get some gigs then great, but I don't think it will happen unfortunately.
[/quote]

I like where your head's at and I wish you the best and success. You deserve it.

Blue

[thebrig]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1492245063' post='3278886']
I like where your head's at and I wish you the best and success. You deserve it.

Blue
[/quote]Thanks Blue, it's not an easy decision as I've known two of the guys for some time now, and they are all nice guys, but I realise now that I need to move on otherwise I am just going to get so frustrated with the way things are going.

[gjones]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1492211522' post='3278776']
Get some gigs for the band. Yeah, just like that, get some gigs, it's real easy. You just call a venue and say you have a band and they'll just book you right on the spot.

I think there's a lot more to it than;

"Get some gigs"

Blue
[/quote]


At the local Womans institute, old people's care home, open mic night, go busking. It doesn't have to be a support slot with a reformed Led Zeppelin (although that would be cool)

[TimR]

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1492076764' post='3277674']
[font=Helvetica]As the title says, am I wrong in wanting to learn the set/songs properly?[/font]

[font=Helvetica]Nearly every band that I’ve been in, we decide on a setlist, or we agree to learn three or four new songs for the following week and I go away and learn them properly, but everyone else just brushes over the surface of the songs, and I end up having to tell them they are playing them wrong, which I hate doing because it obviously annoys them.[/font]

...
[/quote]

There is also often some passive aggressive stuff that goes on in bands. Viz a viz not learning tunes that they don't want to play.

How are you going to make sure the next band isn't like all the other bands you have been in?

[ivansc]

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1492085768' post='3277815']
You might think, why don't you find a new singer, but good singers are hard to find, and he really is good when he is at the top of his game, but he is very inconsistent due to his lack of effort.
[/quote]

Singers who don't play an instrument for some reason seem to be inherently workshy.
No idea why, but this comment is based on working with a LOT of "I just sing" types. You either learn to live with it or move on.

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1492249839' post='3278942']
At the local Womans institute, old people's care home, open mic night, go busking. It doesn't have to be a support slot with a reformed Led Zeppelin (although that would be cool)
[/quote]

I've done two out of your four choices but I ain't telling which ones.

@ OP - If you feel you are turning your back on your mates, I understand. I think you might have little choice however and it is a common enough scenario for the territory. Take 'em out for a curry night and let them down gently. Good mates will tolerate a lot as long as you don't seem to be going behind their backs or giving them the opportunity to respond before the event.

Good luck. It's nice to hear of people who want to make the effort.

[dmccombe7]

Set yourself a time limit on any band you join.
If your not satisfied with them after that time period - move on.
If they're not gig ready in that time - move on.
If they don't all pull their own weight by that time - move on

Max time limit for me is 1 year mainly because i allow for playing in original bands where i'm starting from scratch.
Also like to allow enough time to gel with a band and to see if they are all still nice guys well after you join and its not a case of them making the extra effort because they are desperate for a bassist.

Dave

[blue]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1492256361' post='3279026']


There is also often some passive aggressive stuff that goes on in bands. Viz a viz not learning tunes that they don't want to play.

How are you going to make sure the next band isn't like all the other bands you have been in?
[/quote]

You have to ask questions,

1.What have they accomplished,

2.Where and how often do they gig,

3.Check out the caliber of gear they gig with,

4.What's the pay

5.Do they have a star or is it just a bunch of dudes.

6.What is the process for learning new material and is it working.

7. What kind of turnover have they experienced, is the line up stable.

Hey, years back, I remember it took me 3 rehearsals to realize I was dealing with a bunch of losers.

Blue

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1492160875' post='3278335']
You need to re-arrange all songs to fit the instrumentation of the band. Unless you have a singer doing impressions. Which seems an odd thing to do. Where does it end. Different wigs and glasses for each song?
[/quote]

Well of course there is no point - a song will always need a certain amount of adaptation but I don't see the value of trying to establish a scientific definition of what constitutes "learning the song" - its just common sense, we all know the difference between doing enough to do the song justice vs not bothering.

[TimR]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1492283017' post='3279244']


Well of course there is no point - a song will always need a certain amount of adaptation but I don't see the value of trying to establish a scientific definition of what constitutes "learning the song" - its just common sense, we all know the difference between doing enough to do the song justice vs not bothering.
[/quote]

Quite. And some songs take a lot more work than others. Some will work first play through. Others are like pulling teeth.

[blue]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1492286409' post='3279264']


Quite. And some songs take a lot more work than others. Some will work first play through. Others are like pulling teeth.
[/quote]

We've worked on some songs where we just couldn't get them to work for us. We might have gigged them once or twice then they got dropped.

Blue

[blue]

Overall take away from the OP

The scenario presented by the OP is also an example of why new band or "start ups" are tough. Also how they can turn young players off and leave them with a negative and wrong impression of being in a band.

When you have guys in a start up many times they may only have limited band experience and ability. So, you will have some member that are good with learning and understanding the importance of learning the material with some degree of accuracy.

But, all it takes is those member that can't or won't learn material in a timely manner. This slows down band progress and they're ability to actually gig.

Guys become disappointed with the bands progress and quit. Most start up bands can't support the loss of even one member and fold.

Sadly, 90% of "start ups" never see their 1st gig.

I'm not bashing start ups, because we need them. However,I strongly believe my position is reality.

Blue

Edited April 17, 2017 by blue

[thebrig]

It's the failure to go away and learn the basic structure of the song that frustrates me the most, if there is say, an 8 bar intro followed by verse/chorus, verse/chorus, then a solo, then verse/chorus, outro, why is that so hard to get right?

I'm not looking for everyone to play their parts exactly as the original, I just want them to get the structure right, the original recording is the basis of the whole band getting all the parts in the right places, even if it was an original song we wrote ourselves, we would still have a structure that we all agree to work from.

Edited April 18, 2017 by thebrig

[blue]

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1492510208' post='3280764']
It's the failure to go away and learn the basic structure of the song that frustrates me the most, if there is say, an 8 bar intro followed by verse/chorus, verse/chorus, then a solo, then verse/chorus, outro, why is that so hard to get right?

I'm not looking for everyone to play their parts exactly as the original, I just want them to get the structure right, the original recording is the basis of the whole band getting all the parts in the right places, even if it was an original song we wrote ourselves, we would still have a structure that we all agree to work from.
[/quote]

Some people just refuse to do it. They just don't see the value in preparing for new material.

Blue

[SpondonBassed]

If all the component parts of the band are there but not slotting together, you can't really call it a band. Whether the aim is to replicate a song as in a tribute or to do an original arrangement of a well known song, the band has to gel and appear as one entity. That's fundamental.

[blue]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1492585155' post='3281313']
If all the component parts of the band are there but not slotting together, you can't really call it a band. Whether the aim is to replicate a song as in a tribute or to do an original arrangement of a well known song, the band has to gel and appear as one entity. That's fundamental.
[/quote]


Agreed.

You won't get an argument from here.

Blue

[thebrig]

Just got home from our rehearsal tonight, and after many mistakes on songs we have played a number of times before, and even more on some the newer ones, I said to the guys that we are wasting a lot of rehearsal time going over and over songs where we should at least know the structures, and they couldn't see where I'm coming from.

So I explained to them that we agreed to learn from the same versions which are in a band folder on Dropbox, and I said that I don't expect them to play their parts note for note, but at least learn the structures correctly, but the singer said that even though he listens to the songs and sings along to them with no problems, he said that he forgets them when we get to rehearsals, (he also forgets them when we are playing live unfortunately).

Our set was agreed in December and I learn't all 33 songs within a month, I know them all to a level where I would be happy to play them live, I'm not the brightest person around, and I'm a steady but average bass player, but I know them well because I have put some effort into learning them, they are probably better on their instruments than I am on mine, but I just think that they are happy to plod along and accept mediocracy, so I think I will make a decision after the next rehearsal, they know how I feel, and if they haven't made a conscious effort to work out a way of learning the songs properly and remembering them, then I think I will call it a day.

So again, my question is, [b]Am I wrong to in wanting to learn the set/songs properly? [/b]

[Dad3353]

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1492641888' post='3282006']...
So again, my question is, [b]Am I wrong to in wanting to learn the set/songs properly? [/b]
[/quote]

No, indeed you're not, but you are wrong in expecting them all to have the same goals/standards/motivation as yourself. They have, apparently, different ambitions; either accept that, or cut your losses and find like-minded folks to play with. Either choice is fine; it's your call.

[peteb]

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1492641888' post='3282006']
Just got home from our rehearsal tonight, and after many mistakes on songs we have played a number of times before, and even more on some the newer ones, I said to the guys that we are wasting a lot of rehearsal time going over and over songs where we should at least know the structures, and they couldn't see where I'm coming from.

So I explained to them that we agreed to learn from the same versions which are in a band folder on Dropbox, and I said that I don't expect them to play their parts note for note, but at least learn the structures correctly, but the singer said that even though he listens to the songs and sings along to them with no problems, he said that he forgets them when we get to rehearsals, (he also forgets them when we are playing live unfortunately).

Our set was agreed in December and I learn't all 33 songs within a month, I know them all to a level where I would be happy to play them live, I'm not the brightest person around, and I'm a steady but average bass player, but I know them well because I have put some effort into learning them, they are probably better on their instruments than I am on mine, but I just think that they are happy to plod along and accept mediocracy, so I think I will make a decision after the next rehearsal, they know how I feel, and if they haven't made a conscious effort to work out a way of learning the songs properly and remembering them, then I think I will call it a day.

So again, my question is, [b]Am I wrong to in wanting to learn the set/songs properly? [/b]
[/quote]
One thing I would say is that perhaps learning 33 songs in a month is a bit over-facing. Maybe you should pick them off 3 or 4 at a time??

[thebrig]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1492643678' post='3282021']
One thing I would say is that perhaps learning 33 songs in a month is a bit over-facing. Maybe you should pick them off 3 or 4 at a time??
[/quote]I happened to learn them in a month because I enjoy learning new material, I can happily go into a different room instead of watching TV and play through headphones to learn the songs, and now that I've learn't them, I can relax knowing that I only need to go through every now and then to keep up to speed with them, I didn't expect the rest of the guys to do the same, but we are now five months down the line, and they are still nowhere near knowing them well enough to gig, in fact, we probably only have about twelve to fifteen songs at most that everyone knows well enough to play live.

[thebrig]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1492642877' post='3282019']
No, indeed you're not, but you are wrong in expecting them all to have the same goals/standards/motivation as yourself. They have, apparently, different ambitions; either accept that, or cut your losses and find like-minded folks to play with. Either choice is fine; it's your call.
[/quote]You are right, and although I might come across as being a bit impatient, the opposite is true, this has been going on for a very long time, I've not said too much in the past and just accepted it because they are all good guys, but I take your point that they have different ideas from me, so I guess it really is time to call it a day.

[blue]

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1492645205' post='3282026']
You are right, and although I might come across as being a bit impatient, the opposite is true, this has been going on for a very long time, I've not said too much in the past and just accepted it because they are all good guys, but I take your point that they have different ideas from me, so I guess it really is time to call it a day.
[/quote]

Sounds like your light years ahead of these guys in the band experience business.

Blue

[blue]

Off topic,

I would never committ my time to learning 33 songs for any band unless they had 6 months of decent gigs booked in advance. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that could ever happen in a "start up"

Blue

[bazzbass]

I feel your pain

band said they want to do Silly Love Songs.

So I learn Sir Paul's bassline note for note, it has a set order of little interludes all thru it.

Band start playing it, missing a few of the intricacies and changing the order.....SO.....we don't play it anymore, but then again we are an originals band hehe, this song helping set the 'no covers' rule lol

[blue]

[quote name='bazztard' timestamp='1492660366' post='3282046']
I feel your pain

band said they want to do Silly Love Songs.

So I learn Sir Paul's bassline note for note, it has a set order of little interludes all thru it.

Band start playing it, missing a few of the intricacies and changing the order.....SO.....we don't play it anymore, but then again we are an originals band hehe, this song helping set the 'no covers' rule lol
[/quote]

Is there a business reason for no covers or is it more of an idealogy?

Blue