Cliff Burton

[megallica]

I think it was 88 I discovered anthrax and 89 I heard and justice for all. Quite late in the day to discover thrash really

[Cato]

I got into Anthrax and Megadeth in about 88, it wasn't until the Black album that I really started listening to Metallica. ( Though I learnt the easy bits from Anesthesia before that to impress my non playing mates).

So I was a bit of a populist bandwagon jumper in that respect.

I was never a huge Slayer fan though, I think it was the vocals which put me off.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Cato

[dyerseve]

[quote name='DarkHeart' timestamp='1475358695' post='3145420']
Sorry but that was sh*te!
[/quote]
What was??

[bartelby]

[quote name='Graham' timestamp='1475310064' post='3144881']
Funny thing is with Cliff and Metallica, I remember reading somewhere that Cliff wanted to take the band in a more melodic direction post Master, so we'd have probably got The Black Album sooner, and not had Justice at all.

I also read somewhere that they were planning on replacing Lars, but after Cliff's death decided it was too much upheaval in the band.

So what's better - Cliff in the band and a new drummer but no Justice, or history as it played out?

Apologies for the lack of citations in this post.
[/quote]


New drummer, no question!

[dyerseve]

[quote name='bartelby' timestamp='1475488527' post='3146232']



New drummer, no question!
[/quote]

For sure! No matter who you got they would better than Lars and less of a d!ck as well!

[progben]

Personally I love Lars - for all his flaws he's absolutely vital to the band (drummer and as a personality).

For me Cliff is largely the same. Jason and Rob are probably "better" bass players, in the same way that most drummers are better than Lars, but he was the right guy, IMO.

People also sometimes forget that Cliff also wrote a lot and was instrumental in making albums like Ride and Puppets as good as they are. His knowledge of theory and experimental nature also contrasted well with the more 'sturm und drang' nature of Lars/James.

[Damonjames]

[quote name='progben' timestamp='1475603920' post='3147344']
Personally I love Lars - for all his flaws he's absolutely vital to the band (drummer and as a personality).

For me Cliff is largely the same. Jason and Rob are probably "better" bass players, in the same way that most drummers are better than Lars, but he was the right guy, IMO.

People also sometimes forget that Cliff also wrote a lot and was instrumental in making albums like Ride and Puppets as good as they are. His knowledge of theory and experimental nature also contrasted well with the more 'sturm und drang' nature of Lars/James.
[/quote]

This x 100. If they had not sacked Ron and chased after cliff, I honestly think Metallica would have been just another
Metal band from the Bay Area who struggled to get a foothold... no one else from the SF metal scene made a huge impact - armoured saint etc were good bands, but not in the same league.
It was cliff's musical theory that gave the "ride" and "puppets" their depth and what made them such iconic albums, not just his playing. He also taught that knowledge to James and Lars, which helped make them such prolific song writers.
He is one of my main bass heroes, between him and Flea, it's the reason I picked up a bass.... a real lost talent, like the countless others taken too soon.
I also agree about Lars, it was his personality that drove their band to the success they have now, he was instrumental in reinventing the band to make sure it was always relevant. It was no accident that Metallica were the only metal band that got MTV air time when the grunge scene blew up, it was Lars.
Like all things, together they make an amazing band, on their own without each other, they would not have endured the way they have.
You could argue that if cliff hadn't died, the band may have taken a different course, and if the rumours are true that James and cliff were planning to sack Lars and hire Slayer's drummer Dave Lombardo, then one would assume they would have most definitely gone a different way. For all their faults, after all these years (over 20 for me) I still bloody love em. And the "it should have been Lars" T Shirts still make me giggle :-)

I never knew Cliff, but know his work and have read a lot about his life, so on some level I "feel" like I know him, and I miss his musical influence all the time. Rest in peace brother.

[Wayne Firefly]

Been a fan of Metallica since 1986, Cliff was a great inspiration to me from an attitude and aggression front. What does my head in, in all the bass magazines for years he was pretty much ignored and as metal has always had its share of people knocking it, he was never really mentioned. Now as the years have passed, Aria now decide to release signature SB1000s and all that now he's a 'legend' !! 25 years too late with the basses although you can pick up an original for a lot less than their signature reissues are !!
Scott Ian spilled the firing Lars beans quite blatantly, so if history HAD been different, We could have had a James, Kirk and Cliff band with a different drummer and Metallica might have carried on with another line-up as Lars owns the name.
The loss of Cliff made James and Kirk decide to stay put.
If they had continued as Metallica, who knows how they'd have ended up sounding ?? Might Cliff had left as the years went by... as I cant imagine him getting a haircut and eyeliner later on somehow. We'll never know.

[megallica]

[quote name='Wayne Firefly' timestamp='1476110241' post='3151382']
Been a fan of Metallica since 1986, Cliff was a great inspiration to me from an attitude and aggression front. What does my head in, in all the bass magazines for years he was pretty much ignored and as metal has always had its share of people knocking it, he was never really mentioned. Now as the years have passed, Aria now decide to release signature SB1000s and all that now he's a 'legend' !! 25 years too late with the basses although you can pick up an original for a lot less than their signature reissues are !!
Scott Ian spilled the firing Lars beans quite blatantly, so if history HAD been different, We could have had a James, Kirk and Cliff band with a different drummer and Metallica might have carried on with another line-up as Lars owns the name.
The loss of Cliff made James and Kirk decide to stay put.
If they had continued as Metallica, who knows how they'd have ended up sounding ?? Might Cliff had left as the years went by... as I cant imagine him getting a haircut and eyeliner later on somehow. We'll never know.
[/quote]


I wonder if Dave Lombardo leaving Slayer in 1986 was a coincidence or if he had been promised another gig.

There is a youtube video of James, Kirk and Rob playing Helpless with Charlie Benante which sounds great.
Funny as Lars walks in and his face is a picture.

[Wayne Firefly]

[quote name='megallica' timestamp='1476132292' post='3151692']
I wonder if Dave Lombardo leaving Slayer in 1986 was a coincidence or if he had been promised another gig.

There is a youtube video of James, Kirk and Rob playing Helpless with Charlie Benante which sounds great.
Funny as Lars walks in and his face is a picture.
[/quote]

Wow, Hetfield, Hammett, Burton, Lombardo........That could have been a blast (excuse the pun). But then again, when you look at Metallica with Mustaine, if that had lasted, how good would they have been or how long would it have gone before it imploded ??
Charlie Benante is a superb drummer, accurate, super fast and creative whilst holding down the band faultlessly. Anthrax certain are lucky basts !!!!

[Josh]

I'll just leave this here:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVPCC6V3xRs[/media]

Hearing Cliff in pure isolation both brings out his genius but also that he was not flawless, especially on the earlier albums but when it's all mixed together you'd never know. As his contemporaries at the time (Harris, Butler, Geddy, etc...) Cliff was very different and fresh, out of the Thrash scene there were no other bassists with a classical music education quite as literate as his. He was behind most of Metallica's early classics in some form (Battery Intro, Fight Fire With Fire Intro, MoP middle section, Orion, Damage Inc. intro, Call of Kthulu, etc...) and it is noticeable in how songs were arranged and written without him. Best example is the middle section on To Live Is To Die, i believe was written whilst Cliff was still alive, you can hear his classical influence. After AJFA thats when James and Lars completely took over the song writing process. Poor Jason was pretty much a hired hand throughout his tenure and is greatly underrated for both his playing and how much he added to Metallica as a live band for 14/15 years. Just wait for the AJFA remaster though, his playing is going to surprise a lot of people.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Josh

[christhammer666]

I have listened to a few of jason's isolated tracks from AJFA . God can that dude play especially On dyers eve

[bartelby]

[quote name='Josh' timestamp='1476200566' post='3152244']
Just wait for the AJFA remaster though, his playing is going to surprise a lot of people.
[/quote]

I can't ever see AJFA coming out with the bass properly mixed.
It'll make Lars and James look like fools...

[LayDownThaFunk]

Just search on YouTube for 'And Justice for Jason'.

[bartelby]

[quote name='LayDownThaFunk' timestamp='1476205782' post='3152333']
Just search on YouTube for 'And Justice for Jason'.
[/quote]

I'm sceptical that that is actually Jason's playing...

Edited October 12, 2016 by bartelby

[Cosmo Valdemar]

[quote name='bartelby' timestamp='1476271783' post='3152848']
I'm sceptical that that is actually Jason's playing...
[/quote]

Why?

[bartelby]

Where did they get the bass track from?

[Cosmo Valdemar]

[quote name='bartelby' timestamp='1476272573' post='3152863']
Where did they get the bass track from?
[/quote]

It's from Guitar Hero/Rock Band, one of those types of games. There's a Metallica version and apparently it's quite easy to access all the solo tracks if you know your way around.

[bartelby]

[quote name='Cosmo Valdemar' timestamp='1476276616' post='3152920']
It's from Guitar Hero/Rock Band, one of those types of games. There's a Metallica version and apparently it's quite easy to access all the solo tracks if you know your way around.
[/quote]

Maybe so, but that isn't an official release.
AJFA has already been remastered once and I'm guessing they changed nothing as far as the bass mix is concerned, or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Cosmo Valdemar]

[quote name='bartelby' timestamp='1476277639' post='3152943']


Maybe so, but that isn't an official release.
AJFA has already been remastered once and I'm guessing they changed nothing as far as the bass mix is concerned, or we wouldn't be having this conversation.
[/quote]

What isn't official, the game?
I didn't know Justice had been remastered - when was this?

[bartelby]

[quote name='Cosmo Valdemar' timestamp='1476278207' post='3152951']
What isn't official, the game?
I didn't know Justice had been remastered - when was this?
[/quote]


No, the Justice for Jason youtube stuff...
And what about the Justice songs that aren't on Guitar hero, where are those basslines from?


Justice was remastered in 2008.

Edited October 12, 2016 by bartelby

[thodrik]

I'm not sure that the Justice for Jason stuff is actually Jason. I always thought that it was somebody else who had rerecorded it. I think this has a better remix of the songs featuring Jason's parts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3rhsKdFCmM

It is nearly a fun hobby to wade through all the different attempts to make Justice more listenable. Some people love the original, I just think that it sounds broken.

I think that there will be a remastered (and hopefully remixed) version of Justice in the not too distant future.

The remastered Ride the Lightning album is pretty damn good. You get far more of Cliff in the mix.

[Damonjames]

I've never really listened to these tracks before, and after the first listen to blackened, I didn't think it came close to copping Jason's tone.... then I searched for alembic spoiler clips and it does sound almost spot on (not sure if he DID use a spoiler on that track, but he was using them around this time I believe), so it is either Jason, or someone who can cop his feel pretty well with similar gear.
Justice isn't my favourite Metallica album, so I do t have any great desire to buy a remixed version, but for the dude in question, I think he has earned the right to have his chops heard. Jason has paid his due, like him compared to cliff or not (they are very different beasts), he served his time with dignity and he deserves to have this hazing prank ended.

[bartelby]

[quote name='thodrik' timestamp='1476289946' post='3153100']


I think that there will be a remastered (and hopefully remixed) version of Justice in the not too distant future.

The remastered Ride the Lightning album is pretty damn good. You get far more of Cliff in the mix.
[/quote]

How does the 2008 remaster compare the the most recent one for RtL?

[thodrik]

If I remember correctly the 2008 remasters for just for vinyl. The 2016 remasters were part of a 'special' reissue of Kill 'Em All and Ride the Lightning as expensive box sets with extra videos, photos and outtakes. I haven't spent much time comparing the 2016 remaster with the 2008 remaster. I would imagine though that if you already have the 2008 remaster, you won't hear a massive improvement.