Luthier vs Factory/Mass Produced

[JTUK]

Well, there is also a feel good factor.
I'm a believer that the very good luthiers make a bass that is worth the difference
and if it is tangible to me...I'll buy it.
Others may not.... ?? oh well..!!!

Mercs damn well should be better than a Ford... it would be a shock if they weren't.

[hubrad]

I think that's the thing, David - you were initially nervous but then 'completely blown away' by a particular maker. I've experienced the same thing myself with Overwater.
Plenty of folks go for such as Fender 'cos they know what they'll get; a bit like eating in Wetherspoons in a strange town. Reliable, but if you hit lucky there are most likely far batter eateries, depending on what you fancy.
It's another endless debate!

[discreet]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1444906825' post='2887146']
Mercs damn well should be better than a Ford... it would be a shock if they weren't.
[/quote]

A better drive, I'm sure. But I believe Mercs are currently not as reliable as some more affordable brands. So if reliability is important to you, then you may not want to buy one. It's important to me, so I drive a Corolla. Which I suppose is equivalent to a MIJ P Bass...

[BigRedX]

TrevorR pretty much nailed IMO.

It's about consistency and rarity. The OP doesn't seem to be particularly enamoured with Wals but that's what made the second hand values so high. Until Paul Herman took over building them, it appeared as though there was going to be a finite supply. And with only a few different models having been produced, there was a consistency to the output so if you were looking at a second hand Wal you pretty much knew what to expect. Add to that a couple of high-profile musicians with very distinctive sounds using them, and the second hand values are bound to go up.

Compare and contrast with Sei Bass. Beautifully hand-crafted instruments with stunning looks, but every single one is essentially a bespoke bass for the person who originally ordered it. Pick any two examples of the same model and they will have almost nothing in common other than the body shape. There's simply not enough consistency from one to the next for a some considering a second hand one to know what they are going to get.


If you want a "boutique" bass that will hold its value it needs to have three things.

1. Be out of production or have an extremely long (18 months +) waiting list for a new one.

2. Have a good amount of consistency from one example of the same model to the next.

3. Have a few well know players with distinctive styles and sounds using them.

[DavidMcKay]

[quote name='TrevorR' timestamp='1444906484' post='2887138']
Yup, as so often in such debates it comes down to the "needs"/"fancies" decision. For my car it's always been a "needs" decision. My basses have largely been in the "fancies" camp...
[/quote]

I'm with you.

I drive a 5 year old Toyota Aygo which my kids call the Piggy Bank! My colleagues at work wouldn't be seen dead in a car like that - they all drive Audis, Volvos an such like.

When I tell them I will be spending upwards of £450 / £500 on a bass guitar you'd think I had told them I was planning a sex change. God alone knows what they would make of a Fodera!

Edited October 15, 2015 by DavidMcKay

[DavidMcKay]

[quote name='hubrad' timestamp='1444906989' post='2887149']
I think that's the thing, David - you were initially nervous but then 'completely blown away' by a particular maker. I've experienced the same thing myself with Overwater.
Plenty of folks go for such as Fender 'cos they know what they'll get; a bit like eating in Wetherspoons in a strange town. Reliable, but if you hit lucky there are most likely far batter eateries, depending on what you fancy.
It's another endless debate!
[/quote]

I like the Wetherspoons example. Really hits the nail on the head.

I know what you mean about it being an endless debate, but perhaps some luthiers will get mentioned in the posts that some of us may never have heard of and it will lead to something. I liken it to discovering an author whose work you love and then realising they've got a huge back catalogue that you now get to devour.

[Conan]

[quote name='TrevorR' timestamp='1444861922' post='2886895']
15-20 years ago Buddy Holly merchandise commanded huge premiums in auctions. The same items are currently worth half to two thirds what they were back then. The market has peaked, the buyers now aren't buying that stuff. On the other hand, Kurt Cobain, Sid Vicious or other similar vintage gear is more sought after and now commands higher prices.

[/quote]

Yes, the nostalgia market just ain't what it used to be!

[Skol303]

Seems quite straightforward to me why mass-produced basses tend to fair better than custom-made ones in the marketplace.

Firstly, us consumers tend to gravitate towards brands we recognise and trust. Wal, ACG, Ritter and other boutique brands are familiar to some of us here on Basschat… but not [i]everyone[/i]. I'd wager that many bass players don't know much about them at all; hence they're full of ‘unknowns’.

Secondly, custom-made basses tend to be considerably more expensive than mass-produced ones (often by an order of magnitude). Yes, we occasionally see ACGs for sale around £600-£700. If anyone spies a Wal or Ritter in the same price bracket then let please me know Combine a high price tag with an unfamiliar product and you end up with a niche offering that only a few people will be interested in.

Thirdly, custom-made basses tend to look a bit ‘funny’ to some folks, especially those who believe all basses should look like Precisions.

Ergo, custom-made basses don’t shift so readily.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='DavidMcKay' timestamp='1444909438' post='2887191']
I like the Wetherspoons example...
[/quote]

Do wetherspoons still do curry night on Thursdays? ... it's Thursday today... I may run the gauntlet of chavs down holloway road this evening.

[DavidMcKay]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1444912834' post='2887242']
Yes, the nostalgia market just ain't what it used to be!
[/quote]

My current wife said she is leaving me because of my obsession with nostalgia.

It reminded me of when my first wife left me.

[TrevorR]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1444907806' post='2887165']

It's about consistency and rarity. The OP doesn't seem to be particularly enamoured with Wals but that's what made the second hand values so high.
[/quote]

Well, that's the example I was thinking of but I didn't want to mention the "W" word...

[JTUK]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1444907383' post='2887157']
A better drive, I'm sure. But I believe Mercs are currently not as reliable as some more affordable brands. So if reliability is important to you, then you may not want to buy one. It's important to me, so I drive a Corolla. Which I suppose is equivalent to a MIJ P Bass...
[/quote]

Sure, a better drive and a better all round car. You might be unlucky with a fault, but that has to be a one-off piece of bad luck.
If Mercs had a sustained issue with reliability they'd have a huge problem.

Having said that, if you have to shop around, then buy Jap, but even then one or two will be dogs.

[Conan]

Thing is, there are luthiers and luthiers. At the top end we have the likes of Alleva Copollo, Fodera and Ritter - but then there are the more popular (on here at the moment) and cheaper outfits like Shuker, ACG and Marusczik. It is very difficult (and some would say pointless) to try to compare them on the strength that they are not "mass produced" as there are so many other differences..

And then what about companies like Status, Sadowsky and Zon? Would they be viewed as mass produced or Luthier-made/handcrafted etc? Blurry boundaries.

I'm quite interested in this at the moment because I'm considering getting a bass made by Marusczik. It will probably cost about a grand, so I will have to sell a couple of other basses to fund it (including a Mayones - are they regarded as mass produced or handmade? ). But as the final result will be a one-off, made to my spec, what if I don't love it? It's not as if I can try one, is it?

And if I don't take to it immediately, it's second-hand value will be a lot less than a Fender with a similar new price. It's a bit of a dilemma...

Edited October 15, 2015 by Conan

[Number6]

Seasick Steve is a luthier.....or at least i prefer his less than pretentious creations for his instruments which don't look like grandfather clocks on straps.

[cytania]

Surely part of the attraction of mass produced basses is the after sales parts market. Buying a Fender means you can make modifications that personalise the bass to the owner.

There's also a 'knowability' about Fender. Huge online resources tell you every detail about it. Vast online communities debate aspects of your bass. This is reassuring.

[cytania]

When I was playing acoustic guitars I noticed those who commissioned bespoke instruments suffered huge amounts of buyers regret. Essentially this was because when they picked a guitar off the shelf they made a choice based on what they could feel, touch and hear. With a commissioned build there's huge amounts of anticipation and the actual instrument may not match up to the sound in your head.

[cameltoe]

To the OP- It's not always just second-hand prices.

I'm having my Bravewood '57 style P bass built at a estimate of around £1500. That's a genuinely hand-made bass coming in at two-thirds the price of a Fender Custom Shop, for which the parts are still mostly off the shelf, and significantly lower than Masterbuilt prices.

[cytania]

Also custom builders like to build 'stunners', lush basses that seduce the eye. It's their secret weapon and mass producers only venture into this world for limited editions.

However there's the well-loved-jumper, comfy-armchair aspect to mass produced instruments. Their workhorse, tool like aspect makes them right for noodling on a wet afternoon when a triple A quilt is just too bling-bling.

[DavidMcKay]

I confess that I am a Mac owner so perhaps I simply cannot do 'vanilla'.

[DavidMcKay]

Anyways - I get all this. I really do - but I still find it hard to believe custom/boutique instruments don't do well on the second hand market.

I mean, these aren't "off the wall, sheik wishes a gold plated option, touched by the hand of a virgin" guitars. And they aren't all shaped like a mollusc shell which has bred with a slab of mahogany. They are clearly a labour of love, a signature of the artist that created them (yes - albeit for a price, but I don't see Alan Cringean driving up and down Moffat Hight Street in a Lamborghini), and their finish is impeccable.

[The Admiral]

I hadn't looked at ACG, so googled them, and sadly it confirmed my worst fears about custom basses : I couldn't find a design I liked at all, and they look like the kind of things I've only ever seen being wielded by jazzers and slap addicts, and usually with more strings than I like. No problem with that, and its all about beauty being in the eye of the beholder - but - the issue with holding value, is that they are by definition, one person's 'ideal', and as a consequence of human nature, and no two of us liking exactly the same things, they will only ever ''fit' the commissioning player (hopefully).

It's rather like 'custom cars', (which appear to be a passe thing now) : one man's orgasmic dream ride - Ford Escort MkII with a V8, and 'Dirty Harry' airbrushed custom paint, is somebody else's Chavvy pile of cack.

The fact that so many 'custom' basses come up for sale must surely bring into question the validity of the thought process of ordering one - if so many people buy one, and then sell it, surely (barring financially necessary clear outs) that's because it didn't live up to the dream? The problem is of course, unlike going to a retailer and trying a number of P basses (for example) until you find 'the one', you get what you are given when the Luthier's work is done.

There's also the image issue : if you are auditioning for a new band and you pull out a 'coffee table' 6 string, its likely to scare the natives - people like what they know, and you'll go a long way to find anyone more conservative than guitar players.

[discreet]

[quote name='DavidMcKay' timestamp='1444909118' post='2887185']
...you'd think I had told them I was planning a sex change...
[/quote]

ARE you planning a sex change, just out of interest?

[DavidMcKay]

And the[font="helvetica, arial, sans-serif"][color="#282828"] fact that so many 'standard' basses come up for sale must surely bring into question the validity of the thought process of buying one.[/color][/font]

[DavidMcKay]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1444944937' post='2887653']


ARE you planning a sex change, just out of interest?
[/quote]

No. I am hopeless at accessorising.

[The Admiral]

[quote name='DavidMcKay' timestamp='1444945173' post='2887656']
And the[font="helvetica, arial, sans-serif"][color="#282828"] fact that so many 'standard' basses come up for sale must surely bring into question the validity of the thought process of buying one.[/color][/font]
[/quote]

Not quite the same thing though, in the sense that with a mass produced instrument, the decision is about what best suits from a range of fairly limited and 'stock' options, with their own manufacturing variables - and consequently, over time, the aspect that is least 'perfect' may grate to a point where the player wants to move it on. By definition, a custom made instrument should involve no compromises, or the need to accept 'near enough', as you are paying for a bespoke instrument.

In sense, it's rather like buying a suit. You can get something get that fits pretty well from M&S, but a Saville Row bespoke suit will fit perfectly, but only the person for whom it's made, and that process will have taken note of all their tastes and fitting needs. You'll get more for a second hand Saville Riw suit, but not proportionally to what was paid for it, as much of the premium when new is in the quality of the work and the fit - which doesn't transfer at the same value to the second owner.