Neodynium magnets

[DaveSetchfield]

Are there any problems associated with neodynium magnets, which aren't being spoken about? I would have thought that if a way of making cabinets much lighter came along it would be snapped up and introduced by manufacturers across the board, but this hasn't happened, why not?

[Mcdrewson]

My PA which is JBL SRX is made up of neodynium magnets. They turn subsinto a 1-man lift rather a 2-man lift or a back breaker. Can't think of any differences in sound between this and any previous speakers I've used in terms of sound.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='DaveSetchfield' post='278822' date='Sep 6 2008, 04:12 PM']Are there any problems associated with neodynium magnets, which aren't being spoken about?[/quote]No. They've been used almost exclusively in top of the line touring PA for some ten years now. It's not new technology.
[quote]I would have thought that if a way of making cabinets much lighter came along it would be snapped up and introduced by manufacturers across the board, but this hasn't happened, why not?[/quote]It has, in the higher price ranges. Most OEM drivers are lower priced models, and that's not where neo is most beneficial, as the weight savings there are only a few pounds. Neo dominates where the old ceramic magnet models weighed twice and more what the neo versions do.

[bass_ferret]

Neo = cash at the moment. The advantages of neo is obviously more with cabs with fewer drivers - see the basschat wiki for neo vs ceramic 1x12 cabs. A neo 8x10 will still be a roadie job

[Kiwi]

The Eden forum would have you believe that neo magnets are more susceptible to heat fatigue and have a shorter life. I've not managed to find anyone who has experienced heat dissipation issues or ever had magnets fail on them yet though.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='278929' date='Sep 6 2008, 09:11 PM']The Eden forum would have you believe that neo magnets are more susceptible to heat fatigue and have a shorter life.[/quote]
Only because they were the last to get on board, and with what appear to be Eminence OEM at that. Now let me guess, do they claim they waited the extra five years so that they could 'get it right' ?.
No surprise there, when they still blatently lie about the frequency response of their cabs.

[Kiwi]

some more information that I found FWIW

[url="http://www.speakerplans.com/FORUM/forum_posts.asp?TID=12354&PN=1"]http://www.speakerplans.com/FORUM/forum_po...=12354&PN=1[/url]
[i]"there should be no difference in the heat dissipation with the magnet being neo or ferrite. the amount of heat in the rear chamber is down to the electrical energy dissapated in the voice coil...

...neo magets are used to give the same flux denisty as a ferrite one, but with a smaller (less mass) magnet it would be fair to say the [u]i have heard of some problems with neo magnets shifting [/u]when moving cabinets shortly after heavy usage. either way i have no experience with the driver mentioned."[/i]

[url="http://www.neodymiumloudspeakers.com/"]http://www.neodymiumloudspeakers.com/[/url]
[i]"Pictured above the B-Hive Motor. Neodymium Ring Magnet. [u]New ribbed design to increase heat dissipation[/u]"[/i] (and enhance pleasure?)

I make no guarantees as to the accuracy of this information BTW.

Some members on speaker forums say the neo magnets are more expensive which, according to one pickup maker I've talked to recently, is completely untrue. I've owned and gigged a neo cab for nearly a year and had no issues at all. There's a slight mid range hump but thats a positive, I can hear myself better.

[Adrenochrome]

I'd be running Neodymium cab(s) with a class D head right now if I had the cash. Weight is a big issue when fuel costs are high with quite a lot of driving to gigs.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Adrenochrome' post='278998' date='Sep 7 2008, 10:46 AM']I'd be running Neodymium cab(s) with a class D head right now if I had the cash. Weight is a big issue when fuel costs are high with quite a lot of driving to gigs.[/quote]
Its a successful combination for me. I don't think it makes much different to fuel costs where my driving is concerned though

[escholl]

neo drivers tend to have a more prominent midrage, and the magnets themselves are more susceptible to heat. that's not to say they run any hotter, what it means however is that they generally need heat sinks, as they de-magnetize at temperatures that other forms of magnets do not.

neither should be an issue with properly designed drivers/enclosures.

[SMART]

Glockenklang only offers 10" neos at this time as they feel the current crop of 12's and 15's etc in neo format simply can't hack it. When they do then, then they'll be part of the Glock range. They will not jump on the neo fashion band wagon.

I spoke to Udo Kempt-Giessing at Glockenklang about this last year and he is extremely fussy about this and will not put the Glockenklang brand on anything that does not equal a neo's predecessor.

Just some thoughts...

Ciao

Ian


[quote name='DaveSetchfield' post='278822' date='Sep 6 2008, 09:12 PM']Are there any problems associated with neodynium magnets, which aren't being spoken about? I would have thought that if a way of making cabinets much lighter came along it would be snapped up and introduced by manufacturers across the board, but this hasn't happened, why not?[/quote]

Edited September 8, 2008 by SMART

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='SMART' post='279980' date='Sep 8 2008, 03:42 PM']Glockenklang only offers 10" neos at this time as they feel the current crop of 12's and 15's etc in neo format simply can't hack it.[/quote] IMO the Eminence 3015 and 3015 LF drivers are the best full range and sub woofer fifteens made today, period. There are many other very nice neo drivers of all sizes from not only Eminence but also JBL, Beyma and B&C amongst others, with far better specs than the ceramic magnet drivers they replaced in their respective lines. The only non-neo driver I still recommend is the Eminence BP102.

[Fraktal]

Beyma... Extremely underrated speakers, Im positively surprised someone has mentioned them. Powerful, tough and reliable, even cheap here in Spain since thats where they are made, no clue about international prices.

Many years ago I had a 250w HH combo, probably a bassmachine model, cant remember precisely. I blew up its speaker and replaced it with a Beyma K250, a 15 inches 250w RMS speaker (discontinued unfortunately)... BEST... BASS SOUND... EVER! I punch myself in the face every time I remember I sold it, havent heard a better bass sound in my life.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Fraktal' post='280105' date='Sep 8 2008, 07:57 PM']Beyma... Extremely underrated speakers, Im positively surprised someone has mentioned them. Powerful, tough and reliable, even cheap here in Spain since thats where they are made, no clue about international prices.[/quote]
Their prices in the US are prohibitively high, which is unfortunate.

[Platypus]

Think DR Bass offer Beyma drivers as an upgrade option for their cabs

Sure Robbie will confirm ...

P

Edited September 9, 2008 by Platypus

[sykilz]

I just got the Hartke 210 combo with neo drivers for £439, it`s amazing the output you get for a 1 man lift from the car!!

[stingrayfan]

Must be economics. At the moment, they're limited to more top end stuff, but will surely come down in price. It's a bit like air con and leccy windows in cars - they used to be found on top of the range stuff - now they pretty much come as standard across the board in new motors.

Edited September 16, 2008 by stingrayfan

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='stingrayfan' post='285265' date='Sep 16 2008, 12:50 PM']Must be economics. At the moment, they're limited to more top end stuff[/quote]
The main advantage is the reduction in shipping costs, of both the drivers and the finished cabs. Trimming a 22 pound driver to 10 pounds is a lot more important to a manufacturer's bottom line than trimming a 6 pound driver down to 5.

[Kiwi]

Depends on the manner of shipping though, if bulk container sea shipping is used the weight is less relevant.

[Rumble]

Like escholl said, the ones I've played through do seem to be more midrangey (I know it's not a real word, but hey...). Whilst I love the impact neo mags have on the weight of cabs, I can't bring myself to use a feather-weight cab that I don't like the sound of; instead I've gone for a top-notch small (Bergantino 2x10) cab that doesn't weigh much, but sounds incredible and will give most 4x10's a run for their money.

[ZMech]

[quote name='Rumble' post='285310' date='Sep 16 2008, 07:05 PM']Like escholl said, the ones I've played through do seem to be more midrangey (I know it's not a real word, but hey...). Whilst I love the impact neo mags have on the weight of cabs, I can't bring myself to use a feather-weight cab that I don't like the sound of; instead I've gone for a top-notch small (Bergantino 2x10) cab that doesn't weigh much, but sounds incredible and will give most 4x10's a run for their money.[/quote]

Not that I've had any experience with neos, but I can't see why they would be more 'midrangey', as surely they'd still generate the same shaped magnetic field around the coil? I've heard this midrange bias mentioned several times in reference to neo's, and i just can't fathom the reason behind it.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Zach' post='285843' date='Sep 17 2008, 08:38 AM']I've heard this midrange bias mentioned several times in reference to neo's, and i just can't fathom the reason behind it.[/quote]You're quite correct. There are many factors behind how a particular driver sounds, but the magnet material is not one of them. If a driver that's strong in the mids happens to have a neo magnet, or vis-versa if you choose, it's purely coincidental. A driver has strong mids because its designer configured it to do so.

[escholl]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='285858' date='Sep 17 2008, 01:49 PM']You're quite correct. There are many factors behind how a particular driver sounds, but the magnet material is not one of them. If a driver that's strong in the mids happens to have a neo magnet, or vis-versa if you choose, it's purely coincidental. A driver has strong mids because its designer configured it to do so.[/quote]

that does make sense. where did the myth come from then?...because it seems quite widely known.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='escholl' post='286611' date='Sep 18 2008, 08:45 AM']that does make sense. where did the myth come from then?...because it seems quite widely known.[/quote]Probably from the fact that most neo drivers are upper end, with better engineering and therefore better midrange response than the cheaper OEM variety drivers. While some may find the superior midrange of high end drivers too 'midrangey' for their taste, based mainly on what they're used to, accomodating tonal tastes is why amps have tone controls.

[stevie]

[quote name='Zach' post='285843' date='Sep 17 2008, 01:38 PM']Not that I've had any experience with neos, but I can't see why they would be more 'midrangey', as surely they'd still generate the same shaped magnetic field around the coil? I've heard this midrange bias mentioned several times in reference to neo's, and i just can't fathom the reason behind it.[/quote]

It's possible that the designers of earlier neo speakers got a bit carried away with the power of the magnets and didn't spec them very well. I can see evidence of that in some of the neos out there now. An excessively powerful magnet will not only produce a raised midrange, it will damp out lower frequencies, isolating the mids even more. Another thing that will increase the level of the midrange is a smaller coil, and on the whole, neos tend to have smaller coils than their ceramic counterparts. This is, admittedly, conjecture.

I don't think this is a mature technology at all. It's only recently that these magnets became affordable enough to be used by mainstream manufacturers and I think quite a few of them may still be figuring it out.