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ubit

Pretentious so called professionals

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[quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1430747283' post='2764200']
Is this pretentious?

[media]http://youtu.be/XqS2N5jeWzM[/media]
[/quote]

Game set match redstriper!

On to more musical myths that need debunking!

Ringo was a shi# drummer, anyone?

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[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1430749502' post='2764229']

Ringo was a shi# drummer, anyone?
[/quote]I thought he used Ludwigs ;)

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I do love Basschat for its wide knowledge of musical tastes/encyclopedia.. never heard of D'Angelo until this thread. Downloaded "Voodoo".. what an album.... and amazing example of rhythmic "feel" throughout (Which does exist and doesn't have to be pretentious IMNHO)

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[quote name='TommyK' timestamp='1430758061' post='2764326']
I do love Basschat for its wide knowledge of musical tastes/encyclopedia.. never heard of D'Angelo until this thread. Downloaded "Voodoo".. what an album.... and amazing example of rhythmic "feel" throughout (Which does exist and doesn't have to be pretentious IMNHO)
[/quote]
If you like the album there's a live recording of one of the gigs off the Voodoo tour available from iTunes for a mere £7.99 - Live in Stockholm.

He takes a different approach to the songs - fully blown horn section and extended soul/funk jams - but it's a great listen and the band (inc. Pino) are amazing.

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[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1430749502' post='2764229']


Game set match redstriper!

On to more musical myths that need debunking!

Ringo was a shi# drummer, anyone?
[/quote]

Me no care wot e says! Whe e play be'ind de beat, he is out a time and it sounds sh*te and out a time. When e plays on de beat, it's on de money and sounds like it should!

Edited by ubit

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[quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The way the bass interacts with the drums is where the beat is pushed or pulled. Pino sits right on the back end of Questloves drums, he's always behind it. Flea on Give it Away is leading Chads drums, he's ahead of the beat.[/font][/color][/quote]
I must have cloth ears then, because I listened to both as carefully as I know how and I didn't hear either bass player playing a note ahead of or behind where it 'ought' to have fallen. Flea sounds totally locked in to the drummer; although Pino is playing a more free-range baseline, each note sounds to me as though it sits bang on the rhythm. Am I wrong? Which notes in the phrase is either bassist putting ahead of or behind where it should go?

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[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1430761980' post='2764374']
Me no care wot e says! Whe e play be'ind de beat, he is out a time and it sounds sh*te and out a time. When e plays on de beat, it's on de money and sounds like it should!
[/quote]

Agreed :)

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[quote name='JoeEvans' timestamp='1430763567' post='2764397']
.... each note sounds to me as though it sits bang on the rhythm.
[/quote]

Agreed :)

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[quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1430764265' post='2764406']


Agreed :)
[/quote]

Praise the Lord, someone at last has the guts to agree!

Cheers mate!

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[quote name='JoeEvans' timestamp='1430763567' post='2764397']

I must have cloth ears then, because I listened to both as carefully as I know how and I didn't hear either bass player playing a note ahead of or behind where it 'ought' to have fallen. Flea sounds totally locked in to the drummer; although Pino is playing a more free-range baseline, each note sounds to me as though it sits bang on the rhythm. Am I wrong? Which notes in the phrase is either bassist putting ahead of or behind where it should go?
[/quote]

And again, thank f***, someone can see this!

Behind the beat is out of time and don't sound good. Half beats do not count. The rhythm is where bass should sit. Anywhere else does not sound good to my untrained ears. I like music to be in time and something I can tap my foot to. Lagging bass makes me think that guy has no clue about rhythm . If this is some kind of stylish fad where players reckon you are achieving some artful masterpiece by playing slightly out of time, then count me out!

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Here's a transcription of Pino's playing on the D'Angelo track -

[url="http://www.scribd.com/doc/206169896/Chicken-Grease-DAngelo-download-bass-transcription-and-bass-tab-in-best-quality-www-nicebasslines-com#scribd"]http://www.scribd.co...ines-com#scribd[/url]

Not sure if it's right or not - here's someone playing it -

[media]http://youtu.be/PldrJYGk_ys[/media]

.

Edited by redstriper

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[quote name='JoeEvans' timestamp='1430763567' post='2764397']
I must have cloth ears then, because I listened to both as carefully as I know how and I didn't hear either bass player playing a note ahead of or behind where it 'ought' to have fallen. Flea sounds totally locked in to the drummer; although Pino is playing a more free-range baseline, each note sounds to me as though it sits bang on the rhythm. Am I wrong? Which notes in the phrase is either bassist putting ahead of or behind where it should go?
[/quote]
Trust me, Pino and Flea are behind and ahead of the beat respectively.

We are talking absolute minuscule deviations, so much so that it is incredibly hard to pick out. But they are behind and ahead.

Another pushed line is Peaches. JJ Burnel is ever so slightly ahead of the beat. Punk is notorious for players being slightly ahead, I'm not talking a quaver, or even semi-quaver, I'm talking even smaller than a hemi-demi-semi quaver.

Pino's reputation as a first call guy has come from his incredible sense of rhythm and feel, all his lines with D'Angelo are incredibly deep pocket. Find yourself a REALLY excellent drummer and discuss this phenomenon with them, if they know their stuff they'll be able to help you develop this feel. Or failing a drummer, find a great teacher who knows their rhythms and talk to them!

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Might have been said already but, for me, where the bass 'sits' in relation to the drums can also be about where the emphasis of each note falls - in front, on or behind the beat. It's a subtlety in how your fingers (or pick, etc) attack the strings - and about the attack of the note - as much as a mathematical description or a physics lesson. To my ears, slap is the one technique you can't push or pull the beat with; the attack is too instant. With fingers or a pick, you can kind of drag them over the string and alter the shape of the note envelope.

I play with a drummer who's like a metronome and is a joy because I know exactly when the next beat is coming; I've also played with a drummer whose right foot had a mind of its own and every song was like a huge guessing game. It was terrible.

Anyway, the good drummer once started a song a little slowly for my taste, so I started to play in front of the beat and push it along. He ignored me and carried on. So, a bit frustrated, I dropped back onto the beat, and it sounded to me like a funeral dirge, really plodding along. No life at all. Then I dropped back and started playing just behind the tempo - and the track suddenly developed a groove that felt amazing. The tempo didn't change, but the feel of the song was completely different.

Of course, as usual, everyone in the audience was drunk and no-one cared anyway. But hey-ho. It mattered to me.

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[quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Trust me, Pino and Flea are behind and ahead of the beat respectively. [/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]We are talking absolute minuscule deviations, so much so that it is incredibly hard to pick out. But they are behind and ahead.[/font][/color][/quote]
I did rip the audio and look at it, and it looked to me as though there was a pretty close correspondence between drum and bass on the RHCP track. Obviously on the D'Angelo track, the bass isn't playing right on the drum beats for a lot of the line; for the notes where he is, I'm pretty confident that he's hitting it, but he could well be behind it on the other notes.
But that was why i was keen to hear from someone who has looked at multi-track recordings in this light. My feeling is that a lot of this is about attack and swing, rather than being literally ahead of or behind a beat. With a digital multitrack recording you could see whether that was the case or not, by lining up the drum and bass tracks and seeing where the hit is on both.

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[quote name='JoeEvans' timestamp='1430775265' post='2764529']
With a digital multitrack recording you could see whether that was the case or not, by lining up the drum and bass tracks and seeing where the hit is on both.
[/quote]

I often look at how the tracks line up in my home recordings.
Some musicians habitually play slightly ahead and some slightly behind the kick drum, but the best sounding tracks are when all the instruments line up well.
I sometimes move instruments to line up better and I have shifted entire tracks very slightly to improve the feel.

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[quote name='JoeEvans' timestamp='1430775265' post='2764529']

I did rip the audio and look at it, and it looked to me as though there was a pretty close correspondence between drum and bass on the RHCP track. Obviously on the D'Angelo track, the bass isn't playing right on the drum beats for a lot of the line; for the notes where he is, I'm pretty confident that he's hitting it, but he could well be behind it on the other notes.
But that was why i was keen to hear from someone who has looked at multi-track recordings in this light. My feeling is that a lot of this is about attack and swing, rather than being literally ahead of or behind a beat. With a digital multitrack recording you could see whether that was the case or not, by lining up the drum and bass tracks and seeing where the hit is on both.
[/quote]
That's the thing, you've said it is pretty close. What does that mean exactly?

I've done what you said there, and once we had the finished recording we shifted the bass in relation to the drums to see what would happen with the groove if we changed it up, purely out of interest. The song was written with the bass specifically deep in the pocket, I was not perfectly on the beat, but I wasn't too far behind. It was noticeable in the feel. Anyway, matching my bass perfectly to the drums, so I was absolutely on it, diminished the groove, move it ahead and the whole song fell apart! Behind the beat as we wrote it, meant the song had a real nice groove!

FWIW myself and the drummer aren't your weekend warrior types(no offence is meant by this), we've both studied music with some exceptional teachers and had been working together for around 4 or 5 years so understood each other perfectly when we recorded and wrote the track together! Behind the beat can most certainly be a conscious decision, unlike how the OP represents such a technique.

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[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1430779274' post='2764571']
Behind the beat as we wrote it, meant the song had a real nice groove!
[/quote]

Would you mind letting us hear the song or part of it, so we can hear what you mean?

Edited by redstriper

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Band on the beat

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1dbBvxKDa2M

Band behind

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5X-6_0YqgeI

They just hit that one slightly different that just adds that moment of tension that makes it that little bit more sweet/sour flavour.

Pretentious- moi?

Edited by scalpy

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The trouble is these people are trying to dumb down their natural playing process into language beginners can digest, and it goes wrong. Every musician who pushes and pulls intuitively understands, but the people playing by numbers see it as another technique to mimic, understanding and appropriateness not being important. It's like those amateur singers who tried to mimic Whitney houston's singing style with the wailing and microphone in/outs she used with great effect, without understanding how she did it, becoming a sound mans nightmare!

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[quote name='paulears' timestamp='1430808853' post='2764644']
The trouble is these people are trying to dumb down their natural playing process into language beginners can digest, and it goes wrong. Every musician who pushes and pulls intuitively understands, but the people playing by numbers see it as another technique to mimic, understanding and appropriateness not being important. It's like those amateur singers who tried to mimic Whitney houston's singing style with the wailing and microphone in/outs she used with great effect, without understanding how she did it, becoming a sound mans nightmare!
[/quote]

See that's a bit too condescending for me.
I have said I think it's a feel thing rather than a conscious decision to play in front of or behind the beat, then a number of people have posted examples which, when I've listened to them have been right on the beat. I think the reggae one was to show why you should play right on the beat, cos when he wasn't on it, it sounded dreadful. Again . As I've said, I've played for years, done various styles of music and it's always sounded ok, so I must be unconsciously achieving whatever it is that gives the groove. As has been said, the difference is so tiny, that it's hard to hear.
I certainly don't play by numbers. I've been doing it for about 35 years! I can't count that much!

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Sorry - not meant to be condescending, but you are doing it without thinking. I think the whole process is just a musicians style, and we only notice it when it goes wrong. When it's right, nobody thinks oh, that's ahead or behind - indeed, have you noticed when you have two tracks that are out of alignment, shifting one backwards or forwards is often random - you hear the two sounds as not being together - and are convinced it's the snare, so you shift it the obvious way - it's late, so you move t forwards, but it gets worse because it wasn't late, it was early. I suspect we hear it as 'wrong' but can't easily tell which way it is. When we play, these pushes and pulls are instinctive. Some beginners have the musical ability, and just need to learn the instrument, while others are doing the musical equivalent of painting by numbers, and just can't quite feel it.

In one of our songs, one bass note is really pushed - so much that it's quite obvious, and I always feel it's a mistake, but as a tribute, it's there in the original so I play it. Talking about it one day - the drummer looked blank - he'd assumed my timing was a bit rubbish on that bit every time!

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[quote name='redstriper' timestamp='1430780408' post='2764583']
Would you mind letting us hear the song or part of it, so we can hear what you mean?
[/quote]
I'll see if I have a copy on me, if not I'll have to wait for one of the guys to email it over :)

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