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ubit

Pretentious so called professionals

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I agree that when you have music digitalised and you can actually see the music in front of you, say on a computer screen, then you can move the bass swell to the left or right of the drum swell, which would make the bass behind or in front of the beat, and could alter the feel of the piece,but what I'm saying is a human playing live would struggle to play constantly behind or in front of the beat without sounding out of time. As shown by the clips that have been added to this thread.
I agree that it could be done subconsciously I.e. you can get the feel of the piece and drag or rush without thinking.
I will carry on playing in time with my drummer and I promise never to delve into the world of jazz to spoil anyone's behind the beat experience!

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It would give credence to a lot of rubbish bands that can now say " we're not out of time, I'm playing behind the beat!"

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[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1430841173' post='2765082']
I agree that when you have music digitalised and you can actually see the music in front of you, say on a computer screen, then you can move the bass swell to the left or right of the drum swell, which would make the bass behind or in front of the beat, and could alter the feel of the piece,but what I'm saying is a human playing live would struggle to play constantly behind or in front of the beat without sounding out of time. As shown by the clips that have been added to this thread.
I agree that it could be done subconsciously I.e. you can get the feel of the piece and drag or rush without thinking.
I will carry on playing in time with my drummer and I promise never to delve into the world of jazz to spoil anyone's behind the beat experience!
[/quote]
If it can be achieved subconsciously then why not consciously?

Your attitude towards beat placement and advanced rhythm can quite honestly be taken offensively. Try telling someone such as Pino that he is out of time. It wouldn't go down well in the slightest. If you ever wanna look at it more, I suggest taking a look at Polyrhythms and how playing 4/4 against 5/4 can be kept in time. Then move said concept around to pocket playing within a single rhythm. Being on the beat isn't the only way to be in time.

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[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1430841173' post='2765082']
I agree that when you have music digitalised and you can actually see the music in front of you, say on a computer screen, then you can move the bass swell to the left or right of the drum swell, which would make the bass behind or in front of the beat, and could alter the feel of the piece,but what I'm saying is a human playing live would struggle to play constantly behind or in front of the beat without sounding out of time. As shown by the clips that have been added to this thread.
I agree that it could be done subconsciously I.e. you can get the feel of the piece and drag or rush without thinking.
I will carry on playing in time with my drummer and I promise never to delve into the world of jazz to spoil anyone's behind the beat experience!
[/quote]

It's not jazz. It's all music. This guy explains what playing in a group is all about.

http://youtu.be/cYVCfb5Ou88

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[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1430842176' post='2765101']


It's not jazz. It's all music. This guy explains what playing in a group is all about.

http://youtu.be/cYVCfb5Ou88
[/quote]

Very patronising, cheers!

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[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1430843711' post='2765124']


Very patronising, cheers!
[/quote]

I thought he explained it wry well. Particularly when he talks about looking at where you place the note, in relation to the pulse, under a microscope. And how playing ahead and behind the beat gives a different feel.

If you're finding all this patronising then you are missing out on one of the most important parts of being a musician. Playing in the groove.

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I didn't mean that he was patronising. I thought you were being patronising by posting a video of a guy explaining how to play in time to someone who has been playing in bands for a very long time.
I've got no problem with playing in time. It's this playing out of time that I can't handle ;)

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[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1430845171' post='2765142']
I didn't mean that he was patronising. I thought you were being patronising by posting a video of a guy explaining how to play in time to someone who has been playing in bands for a very long time.
I've got no problem with playing in time. It's this playing out of time that I can't handle ;)
[/quote]

Did you watch the first 10minutes of it?

How he explained that no one is controlling the time during a piece of music and that is down to how the individual players rub off on each other?

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[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1430843711' post='2765124']
Very patronising, cheers!
[/quote]
Yet your view on the subject is in no way patronising, dismissive, and quite ignorant?

You say you've played in bands for years, what type of bands, and what style of music are you into and influenced by? Genuine question cause I struggle to see how you can dismiss a technique quite a lot of players have built professional careers from?

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I think the main two problems here are:

1) Ubit thinks being ahead or behind the beat means playing out of time, when it doesn't
2) None of us are doing a great job explaining why!

None of it is "emperors new clothes" or "pretentious" it is just a fact of music and has been for hundreds of years.

I wonder if the problem is that in rock / pop etc the Mood of the music is dumbed down to Ahead Of the Beat / on The Beat / Behind The Beat rather than the huge amount of terms used to describe the mood that appear in classical music.

[b] Moods[font=sans-serif][size=1][color=#555555][[/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Italian_musical_terms_used_in_English&action=edit&section=6"]edit[/url][color=#555555]][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affettuoso"]Affettuoso[/url][/b] [i]with feeling[/i] Tenderly [b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agitato"]Agitato[/url][/b] [i]agitated[/i] Excited and fast [b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_terminology"]Animato[/url][/b] [i]animated[/i] Animated [b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brillante"]Brillante[/url][/b] [i]brilliant[/i] Brilliant, bright [b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruscamente"]Bruscamente[/url][/b] [i]brusquely[/i] Brusquely – abruptly [b][url="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cantabile"]Cantabile[/url][/b] [i]singable[/i] In a singing style [b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossale"]Colossale[/url][/b] [i]colossal[/i] in a fashion which suggests immensity [b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comodo_(music)"]Comodo[/url][/b] [i]convenient[/i] Comfortably, moderately [b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Con_amore&action=edit&redlink=1"]Con amore[/url][/b] [i]with love[/i] with love [b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Con_fuoco&action=edit&redlink=1"]Con fuoco[/url][/b] [i]with fire[/i] with fiery manner [b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_musical_terminology"]Con brio[/url][/b] [i]with bright[/i] brightly [b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Con_moto"]Con moto[/url][/b] [i]with movement[/i] with (audible) movement [b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Con_spirito&action=edit&redlink=1"]Con spirito[/url][/b] [i]with spirit[/i] with spirit [b][url="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dolce"]Dolce[/url][/b] [i]sweetly[/i] Sweet [b]Espressivo[/b] [i]expressive[/i] Expressively [b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furioso"]Furioso[/url][/b] [i]furious[/i] with passion [b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grazioso"]Grazioso[/url][/b] [i]graciously or gracefully[/i] with charm [b]Lacrimoso[/b] [i]teary[/i] Tearfully, sadly [b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maestoso"]Maestoso[/url][/b] [i]majestic[/i] Stately [b]Misterioso[/b] [i]mysterious[/i] Mysteriously, secretively, enigmatic [b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesante"]Pesante[/url][/b] [i]heavy[/i] Heavy, slowly, sadly [b]Risoluto[/b] [i]resolved[/i] Resolved, decisive [b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scherzando"]Scherzando[/url][/b] [i]playfully[/i] Playfully [b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sotto&action=edit&redlink=1"]Sotto[/url][/b] [i]subdued[/i] Subdued [b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semplicemente"]Semplicemente[/url][/b] [i]simply[/i] Simply [b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Slancio&action=edit&redlink=1"]slancio[/url][/b] [i]passion[/i] enthusiasm [b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivace"]Vivace[/url][/b] [i]vivacious[/i] up-tempo



The feel is really the mood of the music, whether that is slow and relaxed or aggressive and bold.

My own view is that "behind the beat" is to have an overly relaxed almost lazy approach, and "ahead" is an attempt to drag everyone along with me, kicking and screaming if necessary.

That's probably as terrible an explanation as the rest! :D

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[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1430845948' post='2765157']
...

I wonder if the problem is that in rock / pop etc the Mood of the music is dumbed down to Ahead Of the Beat / on The Beat / Behind The Beat rather than the huge amount of terms used to describe the mood that appear in classical music.

...
[/quote]

I think most of the problem is that in most bands you get a rock drummer who just bangs out a basic 'four to the floor' rhythm and expects everyone to be in time with him. Anyone not in time is 'wrong'.

I've played with drummers like that. It's ok for out and out rock or marching bands. But it's no good if you want to dance to the music. It's a revolution when you play with a drummer who has great feel and once you've been spoiled you become very particular with which drummers you play with.

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[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1430846314' post='2765167']
I think most of the problem is that in most bands you get a rock drummer who just bangs out a basic 'four to the floor' rhythm and expects everyone to be in time with him. Anyone not in time is 'wrong'.

I've played with drummers like that. It's ok for out and out rock or marching bands. But it's no good if you want to dance to the music. It's a revolution when you play with a drummer who has great feel and once you've been spoiled you become very particular with which drummers you play with.
[/quote]

That's a good point.

In my youth I played with drummers that could play Lombardo / Lang / Mangini stuff like they were robots. It was the robot element that was the problem.

It was only later when I played with a drummer who insisted that any more than a 4 piece drum kit was "showy billy bollocks" that I realised what a great groove was.

He's hung up his sticks now and I'm gutted!


EDIT - and now (for he last 3 years or so) I play in orchestral situations, often without a drummer. So that means the pulse is me or the conductor.

That's a real eye-opener too

Edited by fretmeister

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[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1430845948' post='2765157']
I think the main two problems here are:

1) Ubit thinks being ahead or behind the beat means playing out of time, when it doesn't
2) None of us are doing a great job explaining why!

None of it is "emperors new clothes" or "pretentious" it is just a fact of music and has been for hundreds of years.

I wonder if the problem is that in rock / pop etc the Mood of the music is dumbed down to Ahead Of the Beat / on The Beat / Behind The Beat rather than the huge amount of terms used to describe the mood that appear in classical music.


[/quote]
I'll add a third issue here. Genre and stylistic technique knowledge.

Almost certainly people have only ever really played rock and pop stylings and derivatives and done the very minimum needed to be successful in those genres and their stylistic techniques. Look further afield and you discover whole new concepts of beat, rhythm, and groove. People also don't understand fully what groove actually is. We use it as bass players to define our feel, when in actual terms, a groove is a repetitive rhythmic device. So when you cover Cissy Strut, you are playing the groove. But what you might lack over the original Cissy Strut line, is the feel. Being able to develop your own feel is absolutely fundamental to being a successful bass player. Pino managed to develop his feel after listening to, learning, and playing Jamerson, and Jaco lines. He found a way to tone both of them down and successful entwine them to develop his own slightly behind the beat feel. Feel and our interpretation of a track is what makes us difference guys and gals.

As for being able to convey behind the beat, on the beat, and ahead of the beat, a picture is often useful. I draw out the sub-divisions and show my students the pocket. That small sonic space where you are so marginally ahead of the pulse or so marginally behind the pulse that you are still absolutely in time. It's all to do with the bloom of the waveform and the interpretation of the players. Fortunately I have been working with exceptional drummers for the past 4/5 years, all of whom are obsessed by rhythm and polyrhythm that they understand what it is I'm doing, they're all VERY well versed in genre and stylistic technique.

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I think I get it now...

If I were to record myself say playing Smoke on The Water on Guitar against a metronome, and then zoomed in massively on the waveforms I would see whether I am ahead or behind the beat because as humans we all have a sense of rhythm and interpret it differently onto an instrument. It sounds on time in person but on a computer you can see exactly where you are in relation to the beat.

Is that about right?

If so that was completely pointless spending time trying to work it out because it hasn't helped me in the slightest knowing what I do.

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[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1430845932' post='2765156']

Yet your view on the subject is in no way patronising, dismissive, and quite ignorant?

You say you've played in bands for years, what type of bands, and what style of music are you into and influenced by? Genuine question cause I struggle to see how you can dismiss a technique quite a lot of players have built professional careers from?
[/quote]

Just when have I been patronising?

I have played a large variety of music. My taste is very wide covering many genres apart from jazz, which I'm not too keen on.
Every example posted showing behind the beat playing has sounded right on the beat to me. I'm dismissive of the concept purely because the timing is so small that it's hard to really visualise it being played by a band in a live situation where you would notice. If it was noticeable , it would sound like the band is out of time.

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[quote name='Weststarx' timestamp='1430855518' post='2765345']
I think I get it now...

If I were to record myself say playing Smoke on The Water on Guitar against a metronome, and then zoomed in massively on the waveforms I would see whether I am ahead or behind the beat because as humans we all have a sense of rhythm and interpret it differently onto an instrument. It sounds on time in person but on a computer you can see exactly where you are in relation to the beat.

Is that about right?

If so that was completely pointless spending time trying to work it out because it hasn't helped me in the slightest knowing what I do.
[/quote]

That is exactly right.

Apart from the last bit.

In the (patronising?) video I posted earlier, the guy goes into detail about how, and why, we should spend a lot of time getting our internal metronome as close as possible to the metronome. How we should put our timing under the microscope. That even though we think we're pretty good and have been playing for many years, we may be just following the drummer (or other musicians) and not actually influencing the feel of the tune ourselves.

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See this is what I'm talking about. There have been occasions when a drummer might have started a piece slightly too slow or quickly. You as a bass player will obviously follow to a certain point , but you will try and influence the way you want it to go by edging slightly one way or the other.
The thing that gets me is, you would be wanting the drummer to , say, slow down, so once he has done this, you would be back on the beat.

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So, this 'dancing about architecture' thing ...

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Does this mean if you can vary playing behind , on and just after the beat during the same song you are a good bassist , if so I was better 25 years ago than I am now.

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[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1430892838' post='2765550']
See this is what I'm talking about. There have been occasions when a drummer might have started a piece slightly too slow or quickly. You as a bass player will obviously follow to a certain point , but you will try and influence the way you want it to go by edging slightly one way or the other.
The thing that gets me is, you would be wanting the drummer to , say, slow down, so once he has done this, you would be back on the beat.
[/quote]

Almost. The drummer doesn't change tempo and the difference between you is almost imperceptible so it feels like you're pulling the drummer along. If the drummer actually sped up you would lose that feel and the tune would sound boring.

Often inexperienced musicians will speed up a song because it feels slow, even though they're playing it at the same speed as the original.

A close analagy would be if you were driving a car at 40mph and it feels slow. You put your foot down and can feel the acceleration which is exciting but when you reach 70mph you stop accelerating and it soon starts to feel slow again. Obviously you can't keep accelerating as the tune/car would just end up going stupidly fast.

It's the tension that gives the effect of urgency.

Edited by TimR

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Same song. Different bass player.

http://youtu.be/GqWObKeoET8

http://youtu.be/zO6D_BAuYCI

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[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1430892838' post='2765550']
See this is what I'm talking about. There have been occasions when a drummer might have started a piece slightly too slow or quickly. You as a bass player will obviously follow to a certain point , but you will try and influence the way you want it to go by edging slightly one way or the other.
The thing that gets me is, you would be wanting the drummer to , say, slow down, so once he has done this, you would be back on the beat.
[/quote]

In my understanding, ahead or behind the beat are not related to tempo. They're related to exactly where in each subdivision you choose to play your notes. There is a precise point that you get for each note by exactly dividing each measure up. If you play on these points, you're "on the beat". But if you choose to play each note slightly before you're "ahead" or if you choose to play late you're "behind". But this has nothing to do with tempo. However, if yourself and the drummer don't understand each other and you start playing ahead, the drummer may think you're trying to speed up, and start increasing the tempo - TimR's point above.

I have a very similar situation with a drummer that I play with, but instead of ahead or behind, it happens with swing/shuffle. So he feels the difference of note placement that swinging brings as an attempt to speed up, and he increases the tempo and it ends up in a bit of a train wreck. So he needs to internalise the rhythm of swing and stop feeling it as an attempt to speed up.

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[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1430861340' post='2765436']
Just when have I been patronising?

I have played a large variety of music. My taste is very wide covering many genres apart from jazz, which I'm not too keen on.
Every example posted showing behind the beat playing has sounded right on the beat to me. I'm dismissive of the concept purely because the timing is so small that it's hard to really visualise it being played by a band in a live situation where you would notice. If it was noticeable , it would sound like the band is out of time.
[/quote]
Well the overall tone of your OP and the use of "so called professionals" in the thread title.

I'd recommend listening to more Neo-Soul style music as that is a genre with a LOT of beat manipulation. Clearly you aren't going to get the concept from this thread alone, therefore I'm out. I don't wish to have someone belittle or dismiss something I, and a LOT of others, have developed and use as part of our careers.

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