BigRedX Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 The importance of artwork and logos? [IMG]http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n249/BigRedX/vampireman_cover_zps4f0e4af4.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n249/BigRedX/spiderqueen_cover_zpsae67fe30.jpg[/IMG] IME most people who haven't commissioned design before aren't prepared to deal with an open-ended hourly rate, and don't really see that what they are paying for isn't just the final product that could have taken just an hour or so to create, but the development process that goes on before that can take several days. For these it's always best to charge a fixed fee with the proviso that there aren't too many "refinements" made to the chosen design. For a band logo I'd seriously think about taking a percentage of the usage over a fee if it looked like the band had any chance of success, although there would need to be a carefully worded contract to make this work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingraybassman Posted May 21, 2014 Author Share Posted May 21, 2014 When I have done one off logos for small business I have found it best to charge a set fee. Offer say 3 options, with refinement of 1 option to be the finished logo. Its a bit different with bands like you say, I'm really sceptical with usage fees and retention of rights. Intellectual property is a minefield and most record labels re-brand and re-market an artist when they "make it" anyway. In earlier years as a designer I fell victim to the "it'll only take you 20 minutes" more than once, people that don't do the job don't understand. Again this isn't helped by printing companies who offer logo "design" to companies with things like business cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 [quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1400606013' post='2455417'] I think it's important - I have just put together something logo-ish for The Inevitable Teaspoons, tried so many fonts but nothing quite looked right. I'm not yet convinced that what I've picked is right, but it's the least wrong so far. [/quote] [quote name='stingraybassman' timestamp='1400622889' post='2455650'] I think the digital age we live in now has changed design so much. Sites like da font mean people try to do things themselves. For me the typeface can tell so much of a story before you even read the words it makes up. It's as much of an artform as music. [/quote] For me there's far more to a logo then just the band name set in a particular font (even if you go for a purely typographic solution). For a start all the interesting "fancy" fonts will have been used by numerous other bands by the time you come to design yours. And then what works well when it's being used to set multiple lines of text rarely fits as well when you're focusing on just a handful of letter shapes I always start by sketching out something by hand to get a feel for the shape of the logo and the letter forms that make it up. If I do use a typeface it will only be as a starting point and all the letter shapes will have been tweaked to some degree by the time the "word(s)" have become a "logo". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oggiesnr Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 [quote name='stingraybassman' timestamp='1400666657' post='2455867'] Its a bit different with bands like you say, I'm really sceptical with usage fees and retention of rights. Intellectual property is a minefield and most record labels re-brand and re-market an artist when they "make it" anyway. [/quote] ... and the reason they rebrand is to ensure that they get a cut on all the official merchandise. It does however depend on whether the record label is going with their own idea of the image or whether they're picking up a band that's making waves in it's own right. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingraybassman Posted May 21, 2014 Author Share Posted May 21, 2014 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1400668409' post='2455889'] For me there's far more to a logo then just the band name set in a particular font (even if you go for a purely typographic solution). For a start all the interesting "fancy" fonts will have been used by numerous other bands by the time you come to design yours. And then what works well when it's being used to set multiple lines of text rarely fits as well when you're focusing on just a handful of letter shapes I always start by sketching out something by hand to get a feel for the shape of the logo and the letter forms that make it up. If I do use a typeface it will only be as a starting point and all the letter shapes will have been tweaked to some degree by the time the "word(s)" have become a "logo". [/quote] +1 We are surrounded by type all day everyday, all of them will have been used before. Many people will dismiss the effect of a typeface as minimal, history and science tells us the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 [quote name='stingraybassman' timestamp='1400669522' post='2455911'] Many people will dismiss the effect of a typeface as minimal, history and science tells us the opposite. [/quote] As a qualified typesetter in a previous life I totally agree. There is a huge amount of psychology behind font choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1400672509' post='2455951'] As a qualified typesetter in a previous life I totally agree. There is a huge amount of psychology behind font choices. [/quote] As a qualified typesetter you should also know the difference between "font" and "typeface". ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1400672805' post='2455956'] As a qualified typesetter you should also know the difference between "font" and "typeface". ;-) [/quote] Thhpp!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowieBass Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Kill two birds with one stone by choosing a band name from the list of typefaces and that's your look sorted http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_typefaces For example, 'Dom Casual' becomes a 50s, 60s style surf rock, sci-fi and TV theme music influenced band http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dom_Casual Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingraybassman Posted May 21, 2014 Author Share Posted May 21, 2014 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1400672874' post='2455957'] Thhpp!! [/quote] Burn! Typesetting and printing as an industry has always fascinated me. That sounded very sad out loud........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRev Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 I think it's important that your band has an identity that makes you stand out from other bands - how effective this is depends on the quality of your designs and ideas. A rubbish, cheesy half -arsed logo will do more harm than no logo. We're lucky in that our drummer is a very good artist who has come up with characters & poster designs that are unique to us and are instantly identifiable. This is our standard promo poster/image. It was inspired by real events at a NYE gig a couple of years back. The same band 'characters' are used in all our posters and promo material Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 [quote name='stingraybassman' timestamp='1400678361' post='2456009'] Burn! Typesetting and printing as an industry has always fascinated me. That sounded very sad out loud........ [/quote] Me too, especially since my interest in typography earns me a living these days. I can also top your sadness quotient: The only time I ever went to The Hacienda in Manchester was not to see some hip band but to attend a typography discussion featuring amongst others Erik Spiekermann and David Carson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skol303 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 (edited) Motorhead, Misfits, Metallica and other bands not beginning with 'M' nor limited to the metal genre Aphex Twin. Prince. Rolling Stones... loads of bands/artists have instantly recognisable logos or namestyles that scores of people have tatooed on their bodies. I work for a creative company that produces brands as part of our workflow, so I agree with all points raised by my designer comrades above. The thing with brands/logos is that they can be everything and nothing in terms of helping to define the identity of a band - or any organisation. A logo in itself means very little. People get obsessed over logos, but what they really need to obsess over is the 'product' or service that the logo represents. In this case, writing and playing great music, You'd have to try really hard to create a logo that people would find so instantly off-putting that they wouldn't give your band a chance (although I'd recommend avoiding the swastika). What really matters is the context - all the guff that surrounds the logo and how/where it's presented. That's what constitutes a 'brand'... from the first line of text describing to your band and its music; to photographs (hugely important) and videos (increasingly so); to the way you dress and perform; the charisma of your frontperson, and so on, and so forth. All that stuff adds up to give punters an expectation of who you are, what you might sound like and importantly - whether you're relevant to them. As corny as it sounds, think of your brand as being a 'personality'. Your logo needs to convey that somehow. Are you dark and serious? Fun and light-hearted? Modern? Vintage? Urban? Whatever. Commercial rates for design - that is, hiring a studio rather than a freelancer - [i]start[/i] at around £300 per day. So anything less than that is competitive. Edited May 21, 2014 by Skol303 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skol303 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1400683885' post='2456073'] Me too, especially since my interest in typography earns me a living these days. I can also top your sadness quotient: The only time I ever went to The Hacienda in Manchester was not to see some hip band but to attend a typography discussion featuring amongst others Erik Spiekermann and David Carson. [/quote] There's a guy in our office with whom you'd clearly get on like a proverbial house on fire! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingraybassman Posted May 21, 2014 Author Share Posted May 21, 2014 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1400683885' post='2456073'] Me too, especially since my interest in typography earns me a living these days. I can also top your sadness quotient: The only time I ever went to The Hacienda in Manchester was not to see some hip band but to attend a typography discussion featuring amongst others Erik Spiekermann and David Carson. [/quote] Have you seen the Helvetica movie? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 [quote name='stingraybassman' timestamp='1400685097' post='2456098'] Have you seen the Helvetica movie? [/quote] or the iphone app game for spotting the difference between helvetica and arial ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 [quote name='stingraybassman' timestamp='1400685097' post='2456098'] Have you seen the Helvetica movie? [/quote] Interesting film if you like design and typography, and a great bass-drven soundtrack IIRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassmonkey Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 (edited) When my band first got together. A designer pal created us a logo which he claimed took him minutes. Since then its appeared as the mainstay of our website, on business cards, posters etc. He is almost apologetic. We love it though Edited May 21, 2014 by Bassmonkey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Dyer Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1400672805' post='2455956'] As a qualified typesetter you should also know the difference between "font" and "typeface". ;-) [/quote] [font=MuseoSans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][size=4]A font is what you use, a typeface is what you see.[/size][/font] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 [quote name='Mark Dyer' timestamp='1400755726' post='2456638'] [font=MuseoSans, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]A font is what you use, a typeface is what you see.[/font] [/quote] Historically from the days of metal and wooden type a font is a specific size. So your typeface might be Caslon 224, but the font for your body copy would be 9pt Caslon 224. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Dyer Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1400757242' post='2456652'] Historically from the days of metal and wooden type a font is a specific size. So your typeface might be Caslon 224, but the font for your body copy would be 9pt Caslon 224. [/quote] I know, I didn't want to get all technical, but it's a well known quote, and kind of sums it up neatly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 [quote name='Mark Dyer' timestamp='1400759476' post='2456684'] I know, I didn't want to get all technical, but it's a well known quote, and kind of sums it up neatly. [/quote] But we're already way past technical in this thread... Besides in this modern age of scalable type it's worth remembering the actual difference and why fonts used to be cut differently depending on the sizes they were going to be used. Some digital typeface suppliers still produce different cuts of a typeface to be used at different sizes (although there's not as many as there should be IMO). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoombung Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Oh, this is one of my favourite subjects. Wondering whether to say anything..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 [quote name='Spoombung' timestamp='1400760920' post='2456709'] Oh, this is one of my favourite subjects. Wondering whether to say anything..... [/quote] Go on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoombung Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1400761479' post='2456717'] Go on... [/quote] Hmmm. Not sure I can be arsed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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