Muppet Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 In my band we are planning to run some recorded keys and or brass but are unsure of how exactly to do it or indeed whether we could get it right. Having no previous experience here's what I'm planning. Record the backing track at the correct tempo in mono and place on one channel of a stereo signal. Record a click at the correct tempo and put on the other channel. Somehow send one channel to the PA and the other channel to the drummer, then get the drummer to start it off. So my challenge is - what do I need for playback? A computer or a MP3 player maybe or what and does anyone have any tips for getting it right? I have visions of it all going horribly wrong and us all blaming the drummer..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 [quote name='Muppet' post='238297' date='Jul 13 2008, 01:32 AM']So my challenge is - what do I need for playback? A computer or a MP3 player maybe or what and does anyone have any tips for getting it right? I have visions of it all going horribly wrong and us all blaming the drummer.....[/quote] A friend of mine used to do this with his band (synths / samples in one track, click in the other), AFAIK he used a rack-mounted DAT most of the time, unless they had new tunes they were still working on, which he'd run from a laptop. Another band I've done some work with would take a desktop Mac out to gigs with them. I suppose whatever you've got will do, so long as it's not in a lossy format like mp3. The big downside of course is that it means the structure of all your tunes becomes very rigid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muppet Posted July 13, 2008 Author Share Posted July 13, 2008 Ah, I was planning on using mp3, is this not a good idea? What should I use instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ped Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 I have done a couple of gigs where a laptop or even an iPod were used. Always worked fine actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muppet Posted July 13, 2008 Author Share Posted July 13, 2008 [quote name='ped' post='238397' date='Jul 13 2008, 11:08 AM']I have done a couple of gigs where a laptop or even an iPod were used. Always worked fine actually.[/quote] Ped, how did you actually run it, live, can you remember? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnt Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='238301' date='Jul 13 2008, 02:23 AM']The big downside of course is that it means the structure of all your tunes becomes very rigid.[/quote] If you want to avoid that, you might want to look at a Rush-style solution: no overall click track, triggering sampled parts on the fly. Do you have access to a sampler of any sort? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ped Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 [quote name='Muppet' post='238400' date='Jul 13 2008, 11:12 AM']Ped, how did you actually run it, live, can you remember?[/quote] Yes, we basically did the backing music for a girl who came to write some songs with us at the studio. Each track on the iPod had drums + keys and a smallish intro so we took our cues from that. It was as simple as pressing play and playing along. I understand your situation is a bit more complex though. My friend does the same thing as you mention (drummer has click, effects etc come through pa 'on cue' so I will ask him about it and get back to you. Cheers ped Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muppet Posted July 13, 2008 Author Share Posted July 13, 2008 [quote name='bnt' post='238410' date='Jul 13 2008, 11:25 AM']If you want to avoid that, you might want to look at a Rush-style solution: no overall click track, triggering sampled parts on the fly. Do you have access to a sampler of any sort?[/quote] no I don't think so. Got a laptop with some stuff on it (including Reason and stuff) but without a click I'd have no idea about how to get everything in time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muppet Posted July 13, 2008 Author Share Posted July 13, 2008 [quote name='ped' post='238412' date='Jul 13 2008, 11:29 AM']Yes, we basically did the backing music for a girl who came to write some songs with us at the studio. Each track on the iPod had drums + keys and a smallish intro so we took our cues from that. It was as simple as pressing play and playing along. I understand your situation is a bit more complex though. My friend does the same thing as you mention (drummer has click, effects etc come through pa 'on cue' so I will ask him about it and get back to you. Cheers ped[/quote] Nice one, thanks. I guess it's a drummers experience I need to tap in to.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayfan Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 There's a very good covers band near me whose drummer uses a [url="http://www.dmaudio.co.uk/octapad2.html"]drum trigger pad[/url] to trigger the click that he plays along with. Presumably it's a L/R split as described above. Works very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassassin Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 I've done this a couple of times - I was in a rock covers duo about 13 years ago, we had backing tapes (on an old 4 track portastudio!) for drums, keys, rhythm guitars. Using a multitrack allowed us to mix a bit for different rooms. My current original band has played a few gigs when we were "between" drummers, using the programmed drums from the original demos, recorded on Minidisc. When we first put the band together, it took ages to find a drummer so we rehearsed like this for months. It really is an incredibly rigid way of performing - and if the monitoring's not great, or you lose it for any other reason - it can all go horrifically tits-up in a nanosecond! :ph34r: Jon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnt Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 [quote name='Muppet' post='238414' date='Jul 13 2008, 11:34 AM']no I don't think so. Got a laptop with some stuff on it (including Reason and stuff) but without a click I'd have no idea about how to get everything in time![/quote] I didn't mean that at all - I meant playing [i]without[/i] a click (to keep the live feel), then triggering the samples manually at the correct point in the song. Reason could certainly do the job, but there's the problem of how to trigger the samples while playing. The guys from Rush use drum triggers and bass pedals in addition to a keyboard, but that's expensive and takes practice, so maybe I'm thinking too far ahead here - never mind. If you're thinking of using a laptop with Reason, how about doing it in conjunction with a decent sound card or USB box? You could route the click out the standard audio port in to the monitor, and the proper audio out the good sound card to the PA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlbbb Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 As BNT said, I always imagined that a click track would be run through the monitors, and the actual backing track out through the PA. I have no experience in the matter, but I have thought about this a few times and it seems a good solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike257 Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 used to run synth/sample parts with my old band, we started out with me triggering the sequencer on the keyboard, with L/R split to a headphone amp for the drummer and a DI box for the FOH. We eventually changed to burning the same L/R split to CD, and the drummer triggered it from a portable DVD player. That way, he's got a big bright visual readout of what he's triggering, and there's virtually no load time for track changes. Depends on your drummer being confident keeping the rest of you in with the click! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironside1966 Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Muppet' post='238297' date='Jul 13 2008, 01:32 AM']In my band we are planning to run some recorded keys and or brass but are unsure of how exactly to do it or indeed whether we could get it right. Having no previous experience here's what I'm planning. Record the backing track at the correct tempo in mono and place on one channel of a stereo signal. Record a click at the correct tempo and put on the other channel. Somehow send one channel to the PA and the other channel to the drummer, then get the drummer to start it off. So my challenge is - what do I need for playback? A computer or a MP3 player maybe or what and does anyone have any tips for getting it right? I have visions of it all going horribly wrong and us all blaming the drummer.....[/quote] It seems as if you have got this pretty much spot on. I have worked with a few bands who have done exactly this, ,in most cases used mini disk or DAT, but it was a few years ago. Both mini disk and mp3 use are below CD quality and use compression but INHO I don’t think it will matter too much. Dat is also an option is slightly above CD quality and does not use any compression. The thing to watch out for is the quality if the signal going to the desk, a RCA out put on the back of a Mini disk will be more suitable then a headphone output of a small mp3 player but use your ears. Also small headphone sockets can get unreliable after constant plugging in and outs of their sockets, can come out quit easily and are also easy to nick. If it sounds good do it. Maybe use a mp3 for practices then by a secondhand DAT or mini disk when you are happy that the way to go. Dat or iPod, Left and Right Desk. Left click for drummer, channel volume down spare Aux to headphone amp, drummer. Right FOH + fold back if required. If it works there is nothing stopping you going straight to the headphone amp from the left out of the player. Edited July 13, 2008 by ironside1966 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huge Hands Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 (edited) The biggest problem will be for your drummer. Unlike someone said, you don't want click coming through the stage moinitors, as it will be heard FOH. The drummer will need to wear headphones of some sort, but then the problem for him may be volume. A lot of bands I used to work with used to use all manner of playback. For example, a stereo device such as a DAT ot Minidisc player would do, with L going to the drummer, and R going to the mixing desk, but this would mean that you would be unable to mix the various tracked instruments, so the recorded mix would have to be good. Some bands would just use the headphone socket on the playback device, but often the click volume wouldn't be loud enough for the drummer on loud stages, especially if there was no pan function for the headphones and he was also getting backing track as well.. Remember, impedance of headphones in this respect can be just as critical as bass cabs! You will probably need to give your drummer plenty of practice with the click tracks if he's never used click before. This is my experience (as a former drummer): The first time I tried it, I thought I wouuld want the click thumping into my eardrums to make sure I was hearing it. I kept asking for more volume and couldn't understand why my timing was getting worse. It wasn't until a few years later, working as a sound man with various cabaret acts that use click all the time - that I had a sneaky shot on the drummer's gear and found that the secret was (for him and me anyway) to have the click at lower level so that you subliminally get used to it and don't really notice it - you only would start to hear it if you were going off time. Edited July 13, 2008 by Huge Hands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 You want to most reliable playback possible. Personally I wouldn't even think about DAT much too fragile and terribly out of date technology. I'd think about something with no moving parts for the playback so a flash based player. Maybe an iPod nano - remember iPods are capable of playing full 16bit 44.1KHz audio it doesn't have to be MP3 or AAC compressed files. Alternatively one of the multitrack recorders. On the whole if the recorded parts are ear-candy rather than the backbone of the tracks sound quality won't be too important. In the 80s I played in a synth band and all our rhythmic backing was on compact cassette and we never had any sound quality issues live. If you go for a stereo player with the backing on one track and click/rhythmic guide on the other make sure that there's decent separation between the L and R channels on the player as this may not have been a particularly high priority in the original design where shortcoming may only be a slight narrowing of the stereo image rather than an obtrusive click bleeding through into the FoH... As to what your drummer plays to - check with him/her. Some want a straight-forward click with an accent on the first beat of the bar, others may want something a bit more complex and rhythmic. You'll need to do some tests to see what works best. Remind the drummer that they'll need to provide rhythmic cues during the intros and other break downs as they're the only one who can hear the master tempo track. One problem they may encounter is that when you're perfectly in sync with the click track it tends to get drowned out by the live drums... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennifer Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 I'm mainly a drummer and a little bit of a bassist. Its a tough situation - one band that plays to a backing track very succesfully around here is spectrum7 - www.myspace.com/spectrum7 Check it out - synths and stuff, very gameboyesque. They have a laptop running cubase, with the backing track w/click being sent to their drummer. The backing track without click is sent out to the FOH system. The guitarist/bassist/singer get just the FOH sound coming through, no click - the drummer has to keep in time. Their key is having a very good drummer who is well rehearsed and click confident. But yes, the problem is that you can't mess with the song at all and its rather rigidly structured that way. In my own experience of trying this, well, you just need a lot of practise, i'm getting really good at playing with a click/backing track but still not perfect. And yeah, as mentioned, another way is to use sampling pads but again they are in a set tempo so if by the time you get to the parts where you trigger these samples, the tempo has sped up, they won't fit the phrasing and speed of the song. Pain! If you want to try the backing with click system you need a few basics - a simple audio interface with 4 outputs and a headphone amp built in - something like the Presonus Firebox would suffice. Route the version with click to the main outs, and the drummer can run off of the built in and very decent headphone amp, then the FOH mix out of outputs 3-4 and into the live desk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironside1966 Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 (edited) I agree DAT,s and mini disks will not stand up to years of abuse and will need looking after. I have never used a iPod so I don’t know, will the jack socket of the I pod still be working and reliable after 12 months on the road and practices? As a guess I would say the iPod socket gives up before the DAT or mini disk does. Also as huge ands says there is the impedance issue as well. I think it is all down to how often you use them as well if you gig regularly then spend money and get a good quality Dat and rack it up well. If you are happy with a iPod, use a iPod. Just make sure you have something to fall back on at a gig on a gig. Edited July 13, 2008 by ironside1966 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennifer Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Totally, even though the ipods are pretty solid mp3 players after their countless revisions, i'd still be taking 2 identical ipods to any remotely serious gigs just as a backup incase one dies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumnote Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 weve done it for years. we started off using a midi file player with the instruments through the pa and a click plus someinstruments through headphones to the drummer. Now i use a 4 track mini disc player with a stereo out to the pa and a third channell as the click going to a mini mixer to the drummers headphones. He can take a feed from the pa for his vocals as well if he wants to. We dont hear the click, only the drummer does, and then we are guided by him, but it only works if you have a pre rehearsed song arrangement. Once you get used to it its fairly easy, but like all things you have got to work at it to get the best results. I have toyed with the idea of using an i pod or mp3 player but someones has got to fumble with the knobs and buttons, which isnt always convenient with a bass round your neck where as i can control the start and next track from footswitches. The drawback is its only 37 mins per disc for 4 track recording. I looked at the korg d888 which gived you 4 tracks of simultaneous playback from its internal hard disc but you cant footswitch contro;; it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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