What new high-quality PA system for pub band?

[Westie9]

We've just purchased 2 x RCF 712's and combined with 1 Mackie 1501, we are covered and gave a great sound.

Previously thought we've tried Mackies, JBL and EV albeit their lower budget tops but by far, we believe that the RCF's blow them away.

Had a very good deal on them too. By purchasing the official bags, the front and rear panels zip away and hold against each other during use so the main body is and always has been protected.

The Mackie sub, great for what we use it for but it does weigh a lot...

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1382613757' post='2254345']
I was told by the tech guys at Bose, that it should be fine for a small rock setting too .... but it isn't. It's not loud enough. I mean, it might be. The Bose guys tell me that if I set it up perfectly to each venue, then it'll have plenty of volume and no feedback. Now, I've tried all the settings they say and it sorta works, but is not 100% reliable.

So, my thought was to get another one - then I'd have enough volume before the feedback cuts in. We have tried two of them (we borrowed on of the Model 1s from a dealer) - but we got the same problem.

I have again been assured by the Bose guys that, with the right tweaking this will be fine. I'm sure they are right, but, to be honest, I figured there must be an easier way to go compact. We just don't have the time and inclination to do so much set up before each gig.

The Mackie DLM units seem a good option to me. It'll will also give us the option of putting more via the PA if we want to.
[/quote]

Claims are one thing, reality is another.

The Bose guys aren't going to say anything but though are they?

If you've got the money to invest, a digital desk, some time to learn it (e.g. the processing for compression, gates, reverb and other fx, 31 band eqs on the outputs), and a decent set of front of houses (and monitors if you need) will kill everything. It will also future proof you for many, many years. Outboard will become a thing of the past given the trend of digital desks at the moment.

Seriously.

(PS if they above is trolling, I apologise in advance (and I know you have me on block anyways) - but this post is for the benefit of others who may be in a similar situation to the OP)

Edited October 24, 2013 by EBS_freak

[stingrayPete1977]

Popup blocker activated! [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1382614076' post='2254355']


Claims are one thing, reality is another.

The Bose guys aren't going to say anything but though are they?

If you've got the money to invest, a digital desk, some time to learn it (e.g. the processing for compression, gates, reverb and other fx, 31 band eqs on the outputs), and a decent set of front of houses (and monitors if you need) will kill everything. It will also future proof you for many, many years. Outboard will become a thing of the desk given the trend of digital desks at the moment.

Seriously.

(PS if they above is trolling, I apologise in advance (and I know you have me on block anyways) - but this post is for the benefit of others who may be in a similar situation to the OP)
[/quote]

[alexclaber]

To clarify my comment about "a heavy right foot", that does not mean uncontrolled stomping or poor dynamic control - timing and dynamics come first!

Obviously a kick that is tuned low will not be as loud as one that is tuned higher - the same physics that applies to loudspeakers of loud vs low vs large, pick any two, applies to drums. A big kick tuned higher (Bonham, Baker, Moon) will be a lot louder than a smaller kick tuned lower. Obviously it's personal preference and it's a pain moving big kick drums around but then again, if you're playing smaller venues and the bass rig is good then a big loud kick drum means you wouldn't need to bring a sub! I love that sound but it's a bit of a niche one nowadays...

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1382616438' post='2254427']
Obviously it's personal preference and it's a pain moving big kick drums around but then again, if you're playing smaller venues and the bass rig is good then a big loud kick drum means you wouldn't need to bring a sub! I love that sound but it's a bit of a niche one nowadays...
[/quote]

Small venues generally aren't physically big enough to allow for big kits. The drummer won't be very popular if they take up the stage... that's the guitarist's job anyway. May aswell sling a sub under the speaker... it doesn't take up any more floorspace than a tripod speaker stand.

[nottswarwick]

I like a bass drum to be big fat and low. But with high end definition from the beater contact. Like a big fat slam.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1382616970' post='2254438']
I like a bass drum to be big fat and low. But with high end definition from the beater contact. Like a big fat slam.
[/quote]

Ooof! Damn right. Just like my nan's boulders.

[EBS_freak]

Dear The Dark Lord, for somebody who has blocked me, you seem to spend a lot of time looking at my profile page.

Just sayin'.

Edited October 24, 2013 by EBS_freak

[Gunsfreddy2003]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1382619193' post='2254473']
Dear The Dark Lord, for somebody who has blocked me, you seem to spend a lot of time looking at my profile page.

Just sayin'.
[/quote]

[The Dark Lord]

EBS Freak. Can you please stop trolling and ruining this thread?

I find you very rude and not helpful. When you said "[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Go buy your next piece of sh*t and get sh*tty results with that." I switched off. I wrote you off as someone who tried to force his opinion on others in a very rude manner.[/font][/color]

[font="helvetica, arial, sans-serif"][color="#282828"]I am surprised that the mods haven't come along and mentioned this. [/color][/font][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I visited you profile to send you a PM to try to sort the matter out amicably - but just as I was doing so, I noticed that you waded in with yet another rude comment. So I didn't bother.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I'm not interested mate. I assume you have some self-esteem problem. [/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I have a lot of very good info from this thread - and I'm sure it has been interesting to other too.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Please stop trolling the thread - or at least try not to bother me.[/font][/color]

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1382622087' post='2254532']
EBS Freak. Can you please stop trolling and ruining this thread?

I find you very rude and not helpful. When you said "[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Go buy your next piece of sh*t and get sh*tty results with that." I switched off. I wrote you off as someone who tried to force his opinion on others in a very rude manner.[/font][/color]

[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]I am surprised that the mods haven't come along and mentioned this. [/color][/font][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I visited you profile to send you a PM to try to sort the matter out amicably - but just as I was doing so, I noticed that you waded in with yet another rude comment. So I didn't bother.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I'm not interested mate. I assume you have some self-esteem problem. [/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I have a lot of very good info from this thread - and I'm sure it has been interesting to other too.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Please stop trolling the thread - or at least try not to bother me.[/font][/color]
[/quote]

I thought you had me blocked. If that were the case, it wouldn't be a problem would it?

I don't believe I am trolling and ruining the thread. As I said earlier, all my comments have been valid helpful ones, especially up to the point where you accused me of trolling.

I am not forcing any opinion at all. I am speaking from experience and whether you or others choose to listen is completely up to you. Thats your right.

As for the mods coming along... what exactly are they going to slap my wrists for? Go back through my threads and read carefully. There is nothing that I have said that would warrant moderation. I suspect you have some personal beef for whatever reason that you have manifested in your head into something that is not there.

No selfesteem problems here I am afraid. You may have to look elsewhere.

I hope that you find your perfect PA with your generous budget... If anything so we dont have to have another episode like this!

Toodlepip!

Edited October 24, 2013 by EBS_freak

[stingrayPete1977]

Low self esteem, white gb with a white finger board and blue leds? You need to come out of your shell!

[molan]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1382628415' post='2254667']
Low self esteem, white gb with a white finger board and blue leds? You need to come out of your shell!
[/quote]

My thoughts exactly

I must say that EBS_f would be one of my first call people if ever I was buying a new PA setup. I love the way his live rig has been put together. One of the most professional function band rigs out there. Really efficient in terms of number of units and wiring, lights etc.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1382636015' post='2254846']


My thoughts exactly

I must say that EBS_f would be one of my first call people if ever I was buying a new PA setup. I love the way his live rig has been put together. One of the most professional function band rigs out there. Really efficient in terms of number of units and wiring, lights etc.
[/quote]
Nah he is just a troll : lol:

[LawrenceH]

The Bose system is a nice concept but if it's similar to their previous products, and user reports suggest it is, it is let down by component quality/power when you take it beyond a certain point. The HK elements system is an equivalent but made with good components, and the Fohhn Linea is the idea taken to the ultimate quality and power level.
But you will still get feedback beyond a certain point with speakers firing into the mics, directivity control and high fidelity reproduction help a lot but they can only do so much, they're not magic - a conventionally-placed front-of-house system with high quality side-fill monitors is probably a better solution for those cases.

[xilddx]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1382091098' post='2247712']
I'm on the horns of a dilemma.

[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]We want a compact PA system for our three piece pub rock / pop band.[/size][/size][/font]

[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]The band consists of two affluent business owners and a professional drummer. We have the money to buy whatever we want. The three main criteria are portability, sound quality and enough volume.[/size][/size][/font]

[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]For the last couple of years, we have been using 2 x Roland SA-300s as a stereo PA. We use it for vocals only. Very good sound and plenty powerful for the small to medium pub scene. Have been using 3 x Behringer B205D monitors of late (which are very good).[/size][/size][/font]

[size=2][size=4][font=Helvetica]However, the Rolands in their flight cases are bulky and heavy.[/font] [/size][/size][font=Helvetica]Time for hi-tech and portability.[/font]

[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]We have purchased a Bose L1 Model II cylindrical column with the big B2 bass bin and the T1 Tonematch system. This goes [i]behind[/i] the band and has a superb sound. But, even though Bose say it doesn’t – it feeds back at volume. It’s great for our quieter semi-acoustic gigs. Unbelievably easy to transport and set up. Fantastic sound quality – and our vocals improve as it sits behind us and we hear what the audience hear.[/size][/size][/font]

[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]We have considered getting a second one of these but we’re not 100 % convinced that just adding a second will give us enough power. I have provoked a technical discussion on the Bose L1 forum which has got me more confused. Apparently, according the main technical guru on there, we will only add 3dB of gain before feedback by adding a second unit.[/size][/size][/font]

[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]So, do we risk spending another £2,800 on the prospect of maybe having enough vocal volume?[/size][/size][/font]
[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]Or, does someone have a suggestion? Great quality sound, very portable, loud enough for pub gigs up to about 300 people, money no object.[/size][/size][/font]

[font=Helvetica][size=2][size=4]I’m all ears.[/size][/size][/font]
[/quote]

Ok, I had a brief whip through the thread and no-one seems to have mentioned the Line 6 Stagesource and Stagescape systems yet. I don't know very much about PA systems but being a delighted Line 6 user I thought I would chime in. This new Line 6 PA system seems to be getting very good reviews in terms of sound quality, versatility and portability.

I'm pretty sure that putting a PA BEHIND the band is a recipe for disaster though. I may be wrong but perhaps the graphical Stagescape mixing solution would help you as it makes it possible to mix effectively even if you are like me and don't know much about setting a PA up properly, which requires sound and acoustic engineering knowledge and experience.

[Karnage]

I never wanted the PA sound firing at me, I wanted the appropriate monitor mix, but we did have a big rig!!! 4 separately mixed monitors on stage. I want to hear my bvox more on stage than we want them out the front so I could pitch better.

It's definitely right that the Bose idea simply isn't realistic at any sort of real volume, regardless of the electronics they use. As soon as you move around near the mics you provide a moving target (frequency and response wise) their 'clever' electronics will not cope with unfortunately. The difference between theory and practice.

Not heard the Line6 yet, but they seem like a great idea. Just hope they are designed for the longer throw and to cope with poor acoustics we all deal with in pubs, not designed for an unrealistically good room!

[ratman]

[quote name='6v6' timestamp='1382096020' post='2247827']
I'd be very surprised if anything Mackie makes is "dire"
[/quote]
The Mackie Thump range are dire. We bought 3 for pub gigs and they have all died on us at some point. We got them from DV, who have admitted they have had lots and lots of failures. They did replace them (more than once), but we don't trust these Thumps now and we will be getting shot of them very soon. I know that the classic 450's are bullet proof, it's the Thump range that should be avoided at all costs. They're built in separate factories and I guess the manufacturing and QC just aren't what they should be.

[lurksalot]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1382613757' post='2254345']

I was told by the tech guys at Bose, that it should be fine for a small rock setting too .... but it isn't. It's not loud enough. I mean, it might be. The Bose guys tell me that if I set it up perfectly to each venue, then it'll have plenty of volume and no feedback. Now, I've tried all the settings they say and it sorta works, but is not 100% reliable.

So, my thought was to get another one - then I'd have enough volume before the feedback cuts in. We have tried two of them (we borrowed on of the Model 1s from a dealer) - but we got the same problem.

[/quote]
I am interested in a new PA myself and am well up for the ideas here and have read the thread and I think the advice has been very good.
One thing that gets to me is that the logic behind this thought of having a PA behind the band, is totally lost on me , and I really dont understand why you would think that to cure the feedback issues, an EXTRA PA feeding noise into the mics would reduce the chances of feedback I know the Bose people say its fine , but it doesnt make ring true to me .
We currently use a simple stereo powered desk into passives vocal mainly (with occasional kick) running one channel FOH and the other stage monitors , it works well but just lacks headroom. We borrowed some SRM450s last week for a party at a hotel and they seemed pretty good to me, and were barely troubled .

[crez5150]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1382720607' post='2255980']
Ok, I had a brief whip through the thread and no-one seems to have mentioned the Line 6 Stagesource and Stagescape systems yet. I don't know very much about PA systems but being a delighted Line 6 user I thought I would chime in. This new Line 6 PA system seems to be getting very good reviews in terms of sound quality, versatility and portability.

I'm pretty sure that putting a PA BEHIND the band is a recipe for disaster though. I may be wrong but perhaps the graphical Stagescape mixing solution would help you as it makes it possible to mix effectively even if you are like me and don't know much about setting a PA up properly, which requires sound and acoustic engineering knowledge and experience.
[/quote]

I had a good play with the Line 6 at the PLASA Shoot out..... it was ok at lower levels as was the new Mackie SRM rang but when it was pushed it broke up pretty quick..... shame as it's a great idea if not a little toy like.

Edited October 26, 2013 by crez5150

[The Dark Lord]

Scored one of these. Picking it up this afternoon. 2 x DLM tops, 1 x DLM12S sub, DL digital desk with iPad and iPhone interface - plus another DLM 12 as a monitor. Poles and cables and all cases. Bill was a couple of quid more than £4K.

Will be using it on Friday at a pub gig.

Should be some headroom in this.

The config here shows that the desk goes into the sub and the sub goes to the two tops via a built in high pass filter - which is also configurable.

I have learned a bit from the little pieces of advice I gleaned here (very helpful BTW - thanks). I'll see if I can convince the drummer to mic up his kick and I'll put a touch of my bass via the foldback monitor.

I'll see if I can do a video review over the weekend.

[attachment=147239:Screen Shot 2013-10-30 at 14.44.54.png]

[nottswarwick]

Excellent, very curious to hear your thoughts once used in anger.

Is this the desk you can control with an iPad?

You will DEFINITELY reap the benefits of micing the kick and dribbling a bit of bass through too. Can't see why your drummer would need convincing in any case, it will be a vast improvement.

Well done.

[EBS_freak]

Better Mr Dark Lord. This will be night and day compared to the Bose system.

[quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1383144841' post='2260745']
Is this the desk you can control with an iPad?
[/quote]

Yup. If Mackie did a 24/32 channel version of it, they would kill the entry level digital desk market I am sure.

[quote]
You will DEFINITELY reap the benefits of micing the kick and dribbling a bit of bass through too. Can't see why your drummer would need convincing in any case, it will be a vast improvement.
[/quote]

Defo! Drummers love a bit of it.

PS - TDL - read about setting up the compressors and gates for your mics and you'll be able to push that much better without getting to feedback. If you haven't got a bassdrum mic, a cheap dedicated bass drum mic is what you need. Chucking a SM58 in there won't do it!

Of couse, me writing this is all meaningless if you still have me on block!

[The Dark Lord]

[quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1383144841' post='2260745']
Excellent, very curious to hear your thoughts once used in anger.

Is this the desk you can control with an iPad?

You will DEFINITELY reap the benefits of micing the kick and dribbling a bit of bass through too. Can't see why your drummer would need convincing in any case, it will be a vast improvement.

Well done.
[/quote]

Yep - I got the DL806 thing that you control via an iPad. I have an iPad 3 (horribly out of date I know). It was only £200 more for the 16 channel version - but there's no real point in a three piece.

It'll be in my library for the next couple of nights on test to see if I can pre set it up before we get there on Friday. As I said, I'll try to do a review video.

Edited October 30, 2013 by The Dark Lord

[nottswarwick]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1383145347' post='2260760']
Better Mr Dark Lord. This will be night and day compared to the Bose system.



Yup. If Mackie did a 24/32 channel version of it, they would kill the entry level digital desk market I am sure.



Defo! Drummers love a bit of it.

PS - TDL - read about setting up the compressors and gates for your mics and you'll be able to push that much better without getting to feedback. If you haven't got a bassdrum mic, a cheap dedicated bass drum mic is what you need. Chucking a SM58 in there won't do it!

Of couse, me writing this is all meaningless if you still have me on block!
[/quote]

I'd go for an AKG d112 used if in a budget,

I uses a Shure Beta 52a or an Audix D6. Personally I prefer the Shure, so it is the one I own, but you can't go wrong with the AKG for your needs.