Dave Vader Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 (edited) Apologies for sticking this in general discussion, but it is music related as it is my home studio that is currently at risk, and I want everyone to be able to help me, not just the usual OT nutters. I realised last night, after 2 months in my new lovely home that the outdoor workshop that I have turned into my studio is in fact damp, and it wasn't just that heatwave that knocked everything for six. This was when I picked up every single stringed instrument in reach, and found all the strings to be sticky and a bit rusty. Not ideal. Now it is a big shed on a concrete base, with one wall being the cob wall of next doors barn that it is built against. The shed has a plywood skin on the inside, and an old wooden house door with a window in it. Here's a couple of photos of it from when I moved in. So, possible problem areas, there is a gap over the door where the frame doesn't quite reach the top, I am thinking to put a brushy draught excluder there. Also, there are a few gaps where the frame doesn't quite make the walls, expandy foam for those. There are two air vent holes through the walls up by the ceiling, might be a problem, i was going to put wire mesh over them to stop the moths and mice and badgers coming through anyway, will this be enough? Or should I foam these up as well, and do something else to breathe? I was going to place little caravan dehumidifiers in there as well, as they used to work in the old garage studio that i had before this one. Also, before anybody pipes up telling me not to keep all my gear in a shed, there is no room in the house, and I have no alternative, it was all in the garage at my old house for the last 10 years with no problems, you are not being helpful Anyone got any ideas? All gratefully received. Edited: cos I can't post photos properly.... Edited September 20, 2013 by Dave Vader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobVbass Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Wow! it's so damp it's killed Tinky Winky! Block up all the holes; make sure the floor has a damp proof layer, get a frost heater in there. If you really want to go to town DPC and insulate the walls and floor and dry line it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Why block up all the holes? Surely what's needed is better ventilation? Agreed to keeping a greenhouse heater (or similar) going to help dry out the air, but unless the damp is an actual leak or seepage of moisture from somewhere (in which case, block that bit up) reducing the ventilation will make the problem worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehux Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I'm with Jack on this one. Ventilation is your friend. Mould and condensation flourish where there is no air movement Fit a continuous running extractor fan like this [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Greenwood-Airvac-SF90A-Extractor-Fan/dp/B004Z0SG48"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Greenwood-Airvac-SF90A-Extractor-Fan/dp/B004Z0SG48[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 My experience with renovating a 16th century house is that breathability is the key to controlling damp in buildings that have not been constructed to modern standards with damp proof membranes, cavity walls and the like. Your shed might be on a concrete base but it probably wasn't laid on a DPC, plus the neighbouring cob wall suggests an old house so that probably has no DPC either. All that means there will be some residual dampness around and unless you go to all the trouble of effectively building a completely water-tight internal room then breathability and ventilation is the best way to allow any moisture to dissipate. If you try to simply block up all the ventilation then you could make matters worse. To illustrate this, think of the skin on your hand. It will probably feel totally dry to the touch, but put on a rubber glove and within 10 minutes or so your skin will be very damp indeed because of the trapped sweat no longer being able to dissipate. I would first check the integrity of the roof and any guttering. Make sure there are no leaks and that rainwater is not running down any walls. Might even be worth going outside with an umbrella next time it rains and have a close look at how the rainwater is being handled - you may be surprised how much rainwater comes off even a relatively small roof. A dehumidifier would be a good investment and will give you an idea of how much moisture you're dealing with, though if it is a lot then you should consider a unit that has an external drain facility unless you want to be emptying the water tank multiple times each day. Finally, consider heating. I know this 'fights' with the ventilation requirement and that's one of the biggest issues with old buildings. However, remember than warm air can carry more moisture than cold air so the trick is to eliminate cold spots where condensation can occur. This will often happen behind furniture or other items placed against a cold wall and is often the cause of mould, which needs fresh water to grow as opposed to the 'salty' dampness that may percolate through brickwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted September 20, 2013 Author Share Posted September 20, 2013 Right, sort out door is still on list anyway, but greenhouse heater and proper dehumidifier are now going on the shopping list as well. It is reportedly not on as thick a bit of concrete as one might like (the chap I bought the house off told me that when I was buying it) it has 3 carpets on it to try and make up for that. House is officially late 19th century, but may well have been converted from older outbuildings. Shed is not that old, but the barn wall probably is. Long term plan is to buy the barn as well, and convert the inside properly for a decent studio as well. just need to have a fair bit more money for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I don't know if your outbuilding is too small for it to be an option, but a little woodburner (of the sort found in hippy vans/canal boats/yurts etc.) might do a good job of keeping the damp off. As well as heating, they keep the air circulating, and the combination of the two keeps the humidity down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 [quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1379688078' post='2215761'] It is reportedly not on as thick a bit of concrete as one might like (the chap I bought the house off told me that when I was buying it) it has 3 carpets on it to try and make up for that. [/quote] From the photo you posted I appreciate it might not be easy to make some space, but I'd try to lift those three carpets to see how damp they are and how wet the underlying concrete really is. One of our rooms has old pamments (porous terracotta tiles) laid directly on the ground. The original carpet was damp and mouldy and when we lifted it (and threw it out!) the pamments were quite damp to the touch with a musty smell. With the carpet removed the trapped moisture was able to dissipate and the pamments have dried out very nicely. Also, the room has no heating installed as yet (it's on the loooong list!) so I'm pretty confident the improvement has been solely due to better ventilation. Another example of that rubber glove analogy I mentioned earlier. Just an idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Carpets laid direct on concrete = serious wick effect ... the carpet will literally suck moisture up through the concrete. I'll bet the lower layer of carpet is wringing wet and stinking. Check out the thread from two years ago on my garage conversion - I revived it just a couple of weeks back. You need to lay a false floor on top of the concrete, probably a wooden framework with sheets of marine ply over. That will prevent any wicking and allow some air circulation beneath the floor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 A suspended floor is a good idea but use pressure-treated timber and drill holes or insert airbricks (on two sides if possible) to ensure good airflow underneath, as HJ mentioned. Exterior grade (WBP) plywood is cheaper than full marine-grade ply and should be just as good in an indoor application with good underfloor ventilation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilkyBarKid Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 There are two basic options as far as I can see, either increase ventilation and heat, or reduce ventilation and use a dehumidifier. I'd guess the second option will be cheaper. If the room gets very cold you need to buy a dehumidifier which works at a low temperature - many of them give up the ghost at around 4-7degrees. The moisture content of the air in this country is very high terrible for keeping exposed steel corrosion free. To virtually eliminate rust you need to get the relative humidity below 45%. If you don't want to use dehumidifiers then what about building an airtight wardrobe like box and sticking some dessicant in the box to reduce the moisture content of the air immediately around your instruments, and put a humidity gauge in with them to monitor how well your solution is working. Putting your instruments in big plastic bags with dessicant would have a similar effect. You can get sealing rods for the bags from the people who do veneer presses for woodworking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted September 27, 2013 Author Share Posted September 27, 2013 [quote name='davehux' timestamp='1379678211' post='2215594'] I'm with Jack on this one. Ventilation is your friend. Mould and condensation flourish where there is no air movement Fit a continuous running extractor fan like this [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Greenwood-Airvac-SF90A-Extractor-Fan/dp/B004Z0SG48"]http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/B004Z0SG48[/url] [/quote] I've bought that fan now Dave, and having opened the box and had a look inside, i am going to have to phone a friend, it is a tad confusing on the installation front to say the least. I think it might be because it has no outside grill with it, and a weird flappy bit where I expected a hole..... Will look closer with an appropriate adult (Ok, my friend james who is 2 years younger than me, but knows this sort of stuff, we are both nearer 40 than 30 now) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted October 4, 2013 Author Share Posted October 4, 2013 Right, I now have my extractor fan (the one that Dave linked to earlier) and my greenhouse heater (one of those tubey ones like this [url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121067066775?var=420122285822&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649"]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121067066775?var=420122285822&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649[/url]) and a little thermostat plug thingy for it. Here are some more questions, sorry. Is it ok to wire these things onto plugs and stick them in the 4-way gangers that I have attached to the walls, rather than wiring them into the mains with switches? The mains goes through some sensible fuses already, and the gangers are surge protected. And then... please see diagram The gaps in the walls at top and bottom represent the holes that pass as air vents. The numbers 1 2 and 3 are possible places to mount the fan, number 1 would seem to make sure that airflow is maximised (which is what I want) but would have to be half way down the wall, and i would think it would be better at the top, sucking out the hottest air. If it were in positions 2 or 3, it would be at the top, and much easier to install there, but would it mean that the airflow didn't work as well, and the venting would be all messed up (am I really over thinking this?) And the red cross shows the one bit of the room where I can probably safely put the greenhouse heater, about halfway up the wall, it's in the cob bit so should be a chuckle. is this optimum, or will I be giving myself more problems here? Thanks for any advice chaps, I really am crappy at this, and don't want to get it wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 [quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1380887754' post='2231920'] Is it ok to wire these things onto plugs and stick them in the 4-way gangers that I have attached to the walls, rather than wiring them into the mains with switches? The mains goes through some sensible fuses already, and the gangers are surge protected. [/quote] They're only 60 or 120W - absolutely no problem putting a plug onto these. I think you want to place the heater as low as possible and allow the principle of hot air rising help dry the room out. I reckon your best long term solution is going to be building a false floor on top of the existing concrete one and ensuring you have a couple of airbricks venting the void beneath it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fumps Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Hi mate As I do this for a living do you want me to do a specification for you ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 [quote name='fumps' timestamp='1380897533' post='2232129'] Hi mate As I do this for a living do you want me to do a specification for you ? [/quote] Specification : Building with no damp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fumps Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1380898012' post='2232136'] Specification : Building with no damp [/quote] lol God I wish I could put that at the bottom of some of the reports i do lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 [quote name='fumps' timestamp='1380898102' post='2232139'] lol God I wish I could put that at the bottom of some of the reports i do lol [/quote] You should! In white Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted October 4, 2013 Author Share Posted October 4, 2013 [quote name='icastle' timestamp='1380893190' post='2232030'] They're only 60 or 120W - absolutely no problem putting a plug onto these. I think you want to place the heater as low as possible and allow the principle of hot air rising help dry the room out. I reckon your best long term solution is going to be building a false floor on top of the existing concrete one and ensuring you have a couple of airbricks venting the void beneath it. [/quote] Yep, I may resort to this eventually, only problem I have with that at the moment is that I already whack the ceiling with the scroll of my EUB as it is, so the more height i can keep the better. But I expect it'll be the next project once I've finished with the actual house. [quote name='fumps' timestamp='1380897533' post='2232129'] Hi mate As I do this for a living do you want me to do a specification for you ? [/quote] oooooohhhh, I don't know what one of those is, but I think i want one Gav? Is it free? Cos if it is then I do. Thanks mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted October 14, 2013 Author Share Posted October 14, 2013 Update: Extractor and heater finally fitted. It seems a little better (well a lot in dry weather) and after the rain last night it was less damp, and more musty. I really must get a photo of the "grille" on the outside, which is just until i get a proper one. I done some comedy drilling in the outer skin for now. Also trying to work out how much it'll cost me now I'm running these things all the time. Plans for false floor being drawn up, and put on the very long list of things to do to the house. (also cutting my legs off below the knee, so i can work in there after raising the floor level). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 [quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1381747954' post='2243021'] ...cutting my legs off below the knee, so I can work in there after raising the floor level. [/quote] Now that's lateral thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 [url="http://www.installertools.com/cgi-bin/INTstore.pl?user_action=list&category=Carpet%20Installation%20Supplies%3BKnee%20Pads"]http://www.installertools.com/cgi-bin/INTstore.pl?user_action=list&category=Carpet%20Installation%20Supplies%3BKnee%20Pads[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 You could also go to fancy dress parties as Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted October 14, 2013 Author Share Posted October 14, 2013 Thanks gents, that certainly looks a cheaper/more sensible option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Well if height is a problem and you need to raise the floor, how about raising the ceiling height? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.